Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[Ryujin]

So, we're still on Netflix so we can finish DS9. The last two nights were the Nog-focused two-parter (not actually a two-parter since there's an episode in between, but you know what I mean): The Siege of AR-558 and It's Only A Paper Moon.

The Siege of AR-558 is a weird one because it's basically a Star Trek take on a WW2 war film, and the cliches come thick and fast - you sometimes wonder whether it's a holosuite adventure, but it clearly isn't. It's good that it's very clear that even in the utopian Federation, these things happen - Starfleet officers are posted to defend a position for months longer than they should be because Starfleet is spread so thin and pressed so hard during this war, this is definitely a dirty boots-on-the-ground war with bitter compromises and soldiers doing what they never thought they'd do, and they survive and hold despite horrendous casualties and multiple shots of PTSD all round. Seeing Lennier as a Starfleet engineer is nice. It's weird to think this is well before Iraq or Afghanistan, where war stories like this one will be common among American (and UK, etc) families.

And of course it's the perfect crucible for Nog to get some truly horrible character development. Getting your leg blown off and a metric ton of PTSD will do that for you. The way Vic Fontaine helps him through his recovery is wonderful to see, and It's Only A Paper Moon is a wonderful episode. As a doctor, I'm slightly appalled at Starfleet Medical's lack of understanding of the psychological component of medicine even in the 24th century (when is telling a patient that their pain is all in their head and thus invalid ever helpful?).

One thing I would say is that Vic is very clearly sapient, at least as much as other AI characters in Star Trek (Data, the Doctor, etc) and unlike some of the others he's more or less accidentally so - he's not a cutting-edge science project, he's just off-the-shelf ChatGPT with a couple of parameters changed and a great singing voice. And people can still turn him off or get him to sing on command at will! Making AI in Star Trek is far, far too easy.

It's more a Korean War/Vietnam analogy. Especially the latter. It was in those wars that medivac became a thing, so more soldiers were surviving truly horrific wounds.

I would say that Vic gets even better, through the series. I kind of wish they had somehow managed to sneak in a "Time Tunnelesque" episode, though, as a nod to Darren's early career in SciFi.

 

[jian]

It's more a Korean War/Vietnam analogy. Especially the latter. It was in those wars that medivac became a thing, so more soldiers were surviving truly horrific wounds.

I would say that Vic gets even better, through the series. I kind of wish they had somehow managed to sneak in a "Time Tunnelesque" episode, though, as a nod to Darren's early career in SciFi.

The dramatic beats felt very dated, quite like war films from the 50s and 60s, which were mostly about WW2. The angry complaining, the thousand yard stares, the ungrateful civilian (Quark), and so on. Heck, it goes even further back - a lot of those tropes are from Westerns.

The other thing is that Nog gets yet another maturity upgrade from these episodes - at the end of them he’s a veteran and an adult, who’s seen some sh*t and overcome it. This puts an even bigger gulf between him and Jake, who’s still basically a child at heart. Nog’s known what he wants from life since Season 3. Jake? Not so much.

(And this is arguably true even in The Visitor, which shows Jake never developing past the need for his father. That’s understandable given his experiences in that episode, but it’s still very classic for Jake.)

 

[Arilyn]

Yeah, it's interesting that Jake starts off as the more mature one and a good influence on Nog. Nog outstips him, maturity wise, and you can see them drift apart. It feels very real. DS9 has the best characters in this group of Trek shows.

 

[jian]

I really think Jake doesn’t get a fair shake in DS9, and that’s basically because he’s always defined as a child, an adjunct to his protagonist dad. He’s never allowed to develop his own agenda and maturity. Part of that is the actor’s age and therefore range - Lofton was 13-20 years old during filming, while Eisenberg (Nog) was 23-30.

Part of the tragedy in The Visitor is that Jake actually looks to be becoming his own person, not simply defined by his relationship with his father, until his father pops up when he’s 37 and totally derails him, which is awful.

 

[Arilyn]

I like the fact that Sisko's son is just a typical kid. He has no interest in joining Starfleet and is pursuing writing. He's still figuring himself out and can be exasperating at times but not constantly. I love the relationship between Sisko and Jake, which always remains close.

It's cool that it's the trouble making Ferengi that has the deeper arc. Jake is the commander' s son and instead of us seeing seeds of greatness, he's just... nice and normal.

 

[payn]

I really think Jake doesn’t get a fair shake in DS9, and that’s basically because he’s always defined as a child, an adjunct to his protagonist dad. He’s never allowed to develop his own agenda and maturity. Part of that is the actor’s age and therefore range - Lofton was 13-20 years old during filming, while Eisenberg (Nog) was 23-30.

Part of the tragedy in The Visitor is that Jake actually looks to be becoming his own person, not simply defined by his relationship with his father, until his father pops up when he’s 37 and totally derails him, which is awful.

I think that sets up why Jake has to do the severing, and why its so hard for Ben to live through. Even if Jake never fully matures we get a vision of what that might look like for him in The Visitor.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I really think Jake doesn’t get a fair shake in DS9, and that’s basically because he’s always defined as a child, an adjunct to his protagonist dad. He’s never allowed to develop his own agenda and maturity. Part of that is the actor’s age and therefore range - Lofton was 13-20 years old during filming, while Eisenberg (Nog) was 23-30.

I like the fact that Sisko's son is just a typical kid. He has no interest in joining Starfleet and is pursuing writing. He's still figuring himself out and can be exasperating at times but not constantly. I love the relationship between Sisko and Jake, which always remains close.

It's cool that it's the trouble making Ferengi that has the deeper arc. Jake is the commander' s son and instead of us seeing seeds of greatness, he's just... nice and normal.

It is a nice spin. Kasidy Yates, and more often than not Keiko O'Brien get the same treatment. What it does, though, is cuts them off at 'and then they lived a normal, civilian life' but keep them around until the series wraps up.

Fortunately, it mostly sticks to this. All too many series when they run out of things for a character to do in their plot arc, they end up handing them the idiot ball so they can just advance the plot in 'anyone can do this' moments.

 

[jian]

I like the fact that Sisko's son is just a typical kid. He has no interest in joining Starfleet and is pursuing writing. He's still figuring himself out and can be exasperating at times but not constantly. I love the relationship between Sisko and Jake, which always remains close.

It's cool that it's the trouble making Ferengi that has the deeper arc. Jake is the commander' s son and instead of us seeing seeds of greatness, he's just... nice and normal.

I think that’s definitely the character concept and the team (especially Lofton) delivers it very well, but it becomes a significant contrast to everyone else on the show (who are various shades of player character, living through and doing extraordinary things). And it seems clear that the writers really don’t know what to do with that.

Jake has a shot at protagonism when he chooses to stay behind on DS9 as a Federation news reporter, but even then he achieves very little and has some very obvious plot protection (from the highly professional and ethical Weyoun). He eventually ends up being Resistance Cell Member 4, with no clear risk or role. I think that was definitely a wasted opportunity to do more with the character.

 

[payn]

I think that’s definitely the character concept and the team (especially Lofton) delivers it very well, but it becomes a significant contrast to everyone else on the show (who are various shades of player character, living through and doing extraordinary things). And it seems clear that the writers really don’t know what to do with that.

Jake has a shot at protagonism when he chooses to stay behind on DS9 as a Federation news reporter, but even then he achieves very little and has some very obvious plot protection (from the highly professional and ethical Weyoun). He eventually ends up being Resistance Cell Member 4, with no clear risk or role. I think that was definitely a wasted opportunity to do more with the character.

Yeap, I think thats the issue with Jake, He has motivations, but his agency always seems kneecapped. Sometimes by his father's overwhelming shadow, sometimes by mystic muse magic, sometimes by time travel shenanigans, etc.. Eventually, the series time ran out before Jake could really develop.

 

[jian]

Going back and watching a few earlier episodes before plunging back into the latter half of season 7. So yesterday we watched The Visitor and Second Skin.

The Visitor held up very well and, as noted above, highlights Jake’s core character issues and deftly turns them into an excellent science fiction tragedy. Tony Todd was brilliant. My wife found this episode incredibly sad, because of what it says about parent-child relationships as you get older, and how you find out how much you emotionally depended on your parents when they die, as well as the control (benign or not) that parents often feel they have to exert on their children.

(By the way, Melanie is definitely getting a lot of latinum for those manuscripts.)

Second Skin is a much more conventional episode but very well executed. It has unavoidable parallels with Inquisition, 3 seasons later, but Nerys’ emotional reaction - her devastation at the possibility that she is in fact a Cardassian spy, because she’s honest enough with herself to know it’s possible, as well as her genuine compassion for and connection to Ghemor - really seals the deal. It’s also got parallels with Duet, back in Season 1.