Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

FitzTheRuke

Legend
It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).

Wil got so much hate, that it's a testament to his character that he didn't wind up like that poor kid who played Anakin, or give up entirely like the poor guy that played Joffrey on Game of Thrones. Both didn't deserve the hate. (In particular Joffrey, because he did a very good job at being terrible.)

Heck, I didn't like Wesley myself at the time, and I'm quite the fan of Wheaton today. Glad I didn't ever dis him in public!
 

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GreyLord

Legend
It's the same problem that Star Wars has now. A toxic fan base which has written the future in their heads already, and when the filmmaker's vision isn't the exact same thing they imagined, accuses them of being 'lazy', 'hating Star Trek', 'not understanding the show' and all sorts of stupid stuff. It's horrible, and an anethma to any sort of creativity. Maybe all these things should just die (they won't; they perform perfectly well).

Little late on this...but

I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.

Calling many of them toxic seems to actually have worked against them. Referencing that to RPGs (as this is RPG board) it is a lesson that WotC learned the hard way to a degree. At first they had 4e and kind of put down the earlier versions. Then, when people complained some tried to paint those that were complaining as toxic and only causing problems.

This was a failure to listen and a failure to actually listen to criticism rather than to be more humble and learn what may have gone wrong and what people were actually unhappy about. There were a LOT of jumbled things in there, and some didn't know exactly what they wanted...only that they were unhappy about it.

WotC and Hasbro has some SMART people though. They LEARNED and GREW. In the next go around they completely switched directions and how they handled criticism. Instead of simply trying to write off criticism of others, they made it a core point of the development of 5e. They ran a LOOONG testing process where they received a LOT of input. Instead of putting down criticism they tried to respond in constructive and respectful ways.

The result (in my opinion) is that because they were at least respectful of others comments on the design process, and took into consideration what others said, they came out with a MASSIVE amount of good will and PR. They've continued to build upon that PR and good will.

I think at times trying to paint fans who are disappointed as toxic creates the opposite result of what one actually desires as a company. Instead, treat them respectfully and try to answer constructively regarding what they are asking about.

I know Disney is a Giant in some ways compared to Hasbro, but I think Disney in relation to Star Wars could learn a thing or two from Hasbro about building a brand up rather than helping the fans tear it down.

On the otherhand, take the New Doctor Who. I think, for the most part, the writing has been brilliant. I've enjoyed it tremendously to be honest. I know that there are many who are unhappy with it, but that hasn't disturbed me or my enjoyment of it. I'm okay with those who are criticizing it. Maybe they have good points. I do not know (though I HAVE been a Who fan for awhile, and have as many of the series from the first doctor to the present as possible on DVD and blu-ray) but when I stop and think I can see where they are disappointed in and about.

It doesn't bother me, but I think it might be a good idea for the showrunners to take into consideration why fans may be unhappy if it affects how many are watching or not. As I said, I found the new Doctor so far absolutely terrific. I've enjoyed the Doctor thus far.

I would go so far as to even point out the New Doctor as a prime example of what to do when taking a series in a new direction. I feel they've had SOLID writing.

On the otherhand, I'd say the writing for the Disney Star Wars movies has been less than stellar. I'd even point it as a BAD example of how to write something for a new direction or even to continue in the same direction. The fact that a white male (Rian Johnson) told off a Black woman that she was a racist misogynist in response to her criticism is actually far more horrific to me than what he is labeling toxic fans (which, ironically many of those I knew were minorities and women...who a WHITE MALE is criticizing and calling all sorts of things). If the writing wasn't bad enough, the WAY they've handled the criticism to me is FAR more toxic than anything else and probably has done far more damage to the Star Wars brand than anything else.

How this relates to Star Trek...I'm not sure. I know there are people out there that dislike the new Star Trek. I actually can agree with some of the criticisms of STD. I don't let it bother me though. I think they took some of those criticisms though and listened to them. I feel this is one reason they came out with Picard.

One criticism was that people did NOT want prequels, they wanted a sequel to STNG, DS9, Or VOY era tv series. They wanted a continuation, to see what happened in the future. I feel Picard is the answer to that. They took those ideas and made a new series. They did not want to tread the familiar ground that the other series had already covered (multiple times in fact) and so put it in a new style and format.

I don't like the cussing (I feel it's sort of not needed and it feels off as if they put it in only to show that they could put it in rather than it feeling a natural extension of how the characters would act...but that's a minor gripe) but overall I think they've pulled off what fans have been asking for. I think Picard will have a bigger fanbase than STD.

After writing this, I may add I don't know what the fans have griped about Picard. I do not know the criticisms. I haven't really followed it in that way and none of the criticisms have really come pointedly across most of the boards I have read. Perhaps I'll see more of it as I read more of this thread, but if there is a large contingent of unhappy fans, I'd say it is more constructive to listen to what they are saying than to simply dismiss them with a handwave and call them toxic.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Little late on this...but

I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.
It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.

You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy; or Leslie Jones.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
I think nearly everyone agrees that while TNG S1 got Trek going again, it's pretty bad. 3-6 are really good, and S7 has a few stinker episodes, but is otherwise fine. (I draw the line at Beverly getting raped by her grandma's alien lover - that episode was a serious piece of trash.)

I like TNG S1. I didn't and still don't think it's bad. I also like Voyager too.

I can quote every line of that film. Every note of the soundtrack is burned into my brain. It's peak Trek.

I'm not even close to being that much of a Trek fan though. I may like the seasons above, but I can't quote any of the movies...I can only really quote one line from IV...but it's inappropriate [language] to really quote here.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Little late on this...but

I feel that's actually a misrepresentation of many of the fans that the Disney Star Wars has disappointed.

Calling many of them toxic seems to actually have worked against them. Referencing that to RPGs (as this is RPG board) it is a lesson that WotC learned the hard way to a degree. At first they had 4e and kind of put down the earlier versions. Then, when people complained some tried to paint those that were complaining as toxic and only causing problems.

This was a failure to listen and a failure to actually listen to criticism rather than to be more humble and learn what may have gone wrong and what people were actually unhappy about. There were a LOT of jumbled things in there, and some didn't know exactly what they wanted...only that they were unhappy about it.

WotC and Hasbro has some SMART people though. They LEARNED and GREW. In the next go around they completely switched directions and how they handled criticism. Instead of simply trying to write off criticism of others, they made it a core point of the development of 5e. They ran a LOOONG testing process where they received a LOT of input. Instead of putting down criticism they tried to respond in constructive and respectful ways.

The result (in my opinion) is that because they were at least respectful of others comments on the design process, and took into consideration what others said, they came out with a MASSIVE amount of good will and PR. They've continued to build upon that PR and good will.

I think at times trying to paint fans who are disappointed as toxic creates the opposite result of what one actually desires as a company. Instead, treat them respectfully and try to answer constructively regarding what they are asking about.

I know Disney is a Giant in some ways compared to Hasbro, but I think Disney in relation to Star Wars could learn a thing or two from Hasbro about building a brand up rather than helping the fans tear it down.

On the otherhand, take the New Doctor Who. I think, for the most part, the writing has been brilliant. I've enjoyed it tremendously to be honest. I know that there are many who are unhappy with it, but that hasn't disturbed me or my enjoyment of it. I'm okay with those who are criticizing it. Maybe they have good points. I do not know (though I HAVE been a Who fan for awhile, and have as many of the series from the first doctor to the present as possible on DVD and blu-ray) but when I stop and think I can see where they are disappointed in and about.

It doesn't bother me, but I think it might be a good idea for the showrunners to take into consideration why fans may be unhappy if it affects how many are watching or not. As I said, I found the new Doctor so far absolutely terrific. I've enjoyed the Doctor thus far.

I would go so far as to even point out the New Doctor as a prime example of what to do when taking a series in a new direction. I feel they've had SOLID writing.

On the otherhand, I'd say the writing for the Disney Star Wars movies has been less than stellar. I'd even point it as a BAD example of how to write something for a new direction or even to continue in the same direction. The fact that a white male (Rian Johnson) told off a Black woman that she was a racist misogynist in response to her criticism is actually far more horrific to me than what he is labeling toxic fans (which, ironically many of those I knew were minorities and women...who a WHITE MALE is criticizing and calling all sorts of things). If the writing wasn't bad enough, the WAY they've handled the criticism to me is FAR more toxic than anything else and probably has done far more damage to the Star Wars brand than anything else.

How this relates to Star Trek...I'm not sure. I know there are people out there that dislike the new Star Trek. I actually can agree with some of the criticisms of STD. I don't let it bother me though. I think they took some of those criticisms though and listened to them. I feel this is one reason they came out with Picard.

One criticism was that people did NOT want prequels, they wanted a sequel to STNG, DS9, Or VOY era tv series. They wanted a continuation, to see what happened in the future. I feel Picard is the answer to that. They took those ideas and made a new series. They did not want to tread the familiar ground that the other series had already covered (multiple times in fact) and so put it in a new style and format.

I don't like the cussing (I feel it's sort of not needed and it feels off as if they put it in only to show that they could put it in rather than it feeling a natural extension of how the characters would act...but that's a minor gripe) but overall I think they've pulled off what fans have been asking for. I think Picard will have a bigger fanbase than STD.

After writing this, I may add I don't know what the fans have griped about Picard. I do not know the criticisms. I haven't really followed it in that way and none of the criticisms have really come pointedly across most of the boards I have read. Perhaps I'll see more of it as I read more of this thread, but if there is a large contingent of unhappy fans, I'd say it is more constructive to listen to what they are saying than to simply dismiss them with a handwave and call them toxic.

Dislike of a piece of art, say "The Rise of Skywalker" or "Star Trek: Picard" is fine. Offering your reasons, simply to share or to offer criticism, is fine . . . and you're right, can be helpful to the creatives working on various franchises. I don't think anybody in this thread is saying, "if you are vocal about your dislike and/or criticism of a show/movie, then you are a toxic fan." As Morrus, I think, has made very clear, it's the fans who cross the line from expressing their dislike/criticism to personal attacks and harassment that are toxic. And there are a lot more of these folks out there than I'm personally comfortable with, and it makes me sad. They often defend their toxicity by claiming they are just expressing their opinion, but they are doing much more than just that.
 

GreyLord

Legend
It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.

You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy.

In that case, there was a creator of the second Disney Star Wars movies who was the most toxic thing ever to hit Star Wars. The things he called minorities and Woman as a white male...I have to say I've never seen anyone THAT toxic.

I've actually defended Kennedy on multiple occasions in her position, or at least the position she represents in Hollywood.

People talk about toxic cultures in relation to Star Wars, but a LOT of that was driven by this one particular Last Jedi maker's treatment towards women and minorities online. He is a White Male. What he called some women who were minorities doesn't even make sense (why would he a white male even be calling them racist misogynists? It doesn't even make sense in relation to what they were saying and even less sense in relation to who they were!?).

Is that what you mean as toxic...as he personally has insulted several women I am friends with? (I don't even understand why Disney hasn't openly disassociated itself with him...any other company that had that type of representation would have and has in the past...even WotC had it's problems with a creator and eventually disassociated with him, though it wasn't at first).

This is representative of where the problems I see lie in the mainstream Star Wars today. Rather than listening to criticism, some of those that are representing the line have openly made blatant insults (and some of them I cannot even repeat here as there is one particular that was quite...crud in it's insult to women...just that normally would have been enough to disassociate from a creator with most companies) to people, sometimes when those insults make absolutely no sense when you actually know who the people being insulted are.

I think his reactions and doing what he did is what caused the entire blow up of the issues related to Star Wars. If he had not done what he did, I think there would have been a LOT LESS of an issue, less confrontations, and less insanity of it all. (Personal opinion). I know those he insulted in an unreasonable way now find fault, no matter how small, with Star Wars.

Kelly Marie Tran is an unfortunate incident (and so was Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd...who ironically had JJ fall into the hate crowd on them to a degree...but I find many who label others as toxic like to sweep that one under the rug???) and I would say that is not something that should have happened.

The way Boyega was treated more recently by supposed Star Wars fans was also very sad...not so sure why you wouldn't point that out as it is more recent than Tran. Boyega handled it pretty smoothly and respectfully. Kudos to him.

I wasn't even aware it had happened until after the entire event occurred...but I could see that also as what people would label as toxic.

Unfortunately, I see the term toxic tossed around a LOT these days. It is tossed around so much these days as a way to DISMISS rather than listen that I generally find it as being a way to insult people rather than to take the time to actually listen to the criticism.

I think this started with the above creator I pointed out of The Last Jedi labeling EVERYONE (including woman and minorities) as toxic no matter how valid the criticism may have been or may be in almost any reply. When a White male is trying to insult women and minorities in the ways he did...it's far more toxic in my opinion.

And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.

I just bought 6 copies of Rise of Skywalker today to show my support of the SW Franchise. I find that cash will help quiet any 'toxicity' about a brand if there is enough of it. Rather than toss away complaints by calling them toxic...support the brand in a way that counteracts things instead.

Anyways, this is a Star Trek thread so I'm off topic. In that light, I haven't actually seen the toxic fanbase people have talked about thus far. Maybe it's the forums I am in, or the forums I participate in, but I haven't seen any real persecution of individuals over Star Trek. I still have much of the thread to finish though so maybe I'll read about it coming up?
 


GreyLord

Legend
While our awareness of toxic fandom is more acute now that we are blessed/cursed by the internet, toxic fans were bitching back in the day about all the changes Next Gen made to the canon, both visually (bumpy Klingon heads) and story. In various interviews, I've heard multiple Next Gen actors comment on the hate they got during the first season or so, and how disheartening it was. It was particularly rough on our favorite teenager in space, Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton).

I liked Wesley. I know many for some reason do not, but I liked the character. I think they created a way to have him so that he would be noticed by the Captain and crew (even if it may have been a little extreme in that manner), but did it so that they could create growth in Picard. Wesley presented a way for Picard to grow in that he developed in his relation ship with children, a teenager, and with Wesley himself. I enjoyed that part of TNG myself.

Heh, I remember the issues that people had when Tim Russ played Tuvok on Voyager. A BLACK Vulcan?!!?!!?!!?!! Vulcan's aren't black. :erm:

People get things engraved in their brains far too deeply.

I had no idea about that. I did not know people had issues with him. That is unfortunate. I liked his character.
 

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