Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

[Dire Bare]

In that case, there was a creator of the second Disney Star Wars movies who was the most toxic thing ever to hit Star Wars. The things he called minorities and Woman as a white male...I have to say I've never seen anyone THAT toxic.

I've actually defended Kennedy on multiple occasions in her position, or at least the position she represents in Hollywood.

People talk about toxic cultures in relation to Star Wars, but a LOT of that was driven by this one particular Last Jedi maker's treatment towards women and minorities online. He is a White Male. What he called some women who were minorities doesn't even make sense (why would he a white male even be calling them racist misogynists? It doesn't even make sense in relation to what they were saying and even less sense in relation to who they were!?).

Is that what you mean as toxic...as he personally has insulted several women I am friends with? (I don't even understand why Disney hasn't openly disassociated itself with him...any other company that had that type of representation would have and has in the past...even WotC had it's problems with a creator and eventually disassociated with him, though it wasn't at first).

This is representative of where the problems I see lie in the mainstream Star Wars today. Rather than listening to criticism, some of those that are representing the line have openly made blatant insults (and some of them I cannot even repeat here as there is one particular that was quite...crud in it's insult to women...just that normally would have been enough to disassociate from a creator with most companies) to people, sometimes when those insults make absolutely no sense when you actually know who the people being insulted are.

I think his reactions and doing what he did is what caused the entire blow up of the issues related to Star Wars. If he had not done what he did, I think there would have been a LOT LESS of an issue, less confrontations, and less insanity of it all. (Personal opinion). I know those he insulted in an unreasonable way now find fault, no matter how small, with Star Wars.

Kelly Marie Tran is an unfortunate incident (and so was Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd...who ironically had JJ fall into the hate crowd on them to a degree...but I find many who label others as toxic like to sweep that one under the rug???) and I would say that is not something that should have happened.

The way Boyega was treated more recently by supposed Star Wars fans was also very sad...not so sure why you wouldn't point that out as it is more recent than Tran. Boyega handled it pretty smoothly and respectfully. Kudos to him.

I wasn't even aware it had happened until after the entire event occurred...but I could see that also as what people would label as toxic.

Unfortunately, I see the term toxic tossed around a LOT these days. It is tossed around so much these days as a way to DISMISS rather than listen that I generally find it as being a way to insult people rather than to take the time to actually listen to the criticism.

I think this started with the above creator I pointed out of The Last Jedi labeling EVERYONE (including woman and minorities) as toxic no matter how valid the criticism may have been or may be in almost any reply. When a White male is trying to insult women and minorities in the ways he did...it's far more toxic in my opinion.

And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.

I just bought 6 copies of Rise of Skywalker today to show my support of the SW Franchise. I find that cash will help quiet any 'toxicity' about a brand if there is enough of it. Rather than toss away complaints by calling them toxic...support the brand in a way that counteracts things instead.

Anyways, this is a Star Trek thread so I'm off topic. In that light, I haven't actually seen the toxic fanbase people have talked about thus far. Maybe it's the forums I am in, or the forums I participate in, but I haven't seen any real persecution of individuals over Star Trek. I still have much of the thread to finish though so maybe I'll read about it coming up?

What?

How does talking about toxic fandom "sweep under the rug" creatives and executives who may also be toxic? Hollywood is well known for harboring a lot of toxic personalities, and the current "social media" era is exposing this sort of behavior as well. We just aren't talking about that in this thread, well, until now.

 

[GreyLord]

Wow?

I try to be positive in many instances. My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.

So...sort of like a plug suddenly being uncorked. People referring to my relatives as toxic but not the other side...yes...sorry...didn't sit well with me and I suppose it kind of exploded.

On Star Trek...I've read the thread now and haven't found anything really all that toxic on Star Trek Picard. I'm not in the loop on this so really do not know what people are complaining about overall.

I thought it was pretty well liked by the majority of people who watched it from what I've read thus far. I liked it for the most part.

 

[Dire Bare]

And that is why I have problems with the way we refer to fans who may be critical of something as being called toxic or toxic fanbases.

Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. In fact Morrus and others have taken extra special care to make it clear that is not what anyone here is doing.

Do some folks, out there in internet land, dismiss the opinions of other fans as "toxic" where it is really not warranted? I'm sure. But that problem is small potatoes compared to the actual toxicity that exists within our favorite fandoms.

 

[Dire Bare]

I try to be positive in many instances. My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.

So...sort of like a plug suddenly being uncorked. People referring to my relatives as toxic but not the other side...yes...sorry...didn't sit well with me and I suppose it kind of exploded.

On Star Trek...I've read the thread now and haven't found anything really all that toxic on Star Trek Picard. I'm not in the loop on this so really do not know what people are complaining about overall.

I thought it was pretty well liked by the majority of people who watched it from what I've read thus far. I liked it for the most part.

You are unaware of the fan toxicity aimed at ST: Picard, okay. It's not as bad as what's happened within the Star Wars fandom with the sequel trilogy, but it's there. Star Trek, like most fandoms, sadly has a history with elements of the fandom crossing the line from dislike/criticism to personal attacks & harassment. Certainly not every Star Trek fan who refuses to gush about new-Trek is toxic.

You claim that someone connected to "The Last Jedi" has expressed some pretty toxic opinions regarding minorities. I'm not familiar with that, but I'll take you at your word, even though you don't mention who. The director, Rian Johnson?

I'm failing to see your point.

Because a creative is on the record with toxic and awful opinions, we can't discuss toxic fandom without bringing that up to be "fair"? Both creatives and fans are members of the human race, and we all have an equal capacity for wonderfulness . . . and for awfulness. Yeah. And? Why does discussing one aspect of negative human behavior without discussing all of negative human behavior upset you?

 

[GreyLord]

Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. In fact Morrus and others have taken extra special care to make it clear that is not what anyone here is doing.

Do some folks, out there in internet land, dismiss the opinions of other fans as "toxic" where it is really not warranted? I'm sure. But that problem is small potatoes compared to the actual toxicity that exists within our favorite fandoms.

What IS toxicity though?

The labeling of fan criticism in that light seemed to originate as a major thing to say with a specific individual and their response to criticism to their film (The Last Jedi). That response basically exploded a LOT of the internet statements on this. Ironically, it was to brush aside criticism and to downplay it as anyone who said any criticism as being toxic or the toxic fanbase.

There ARE bad things that people do to others (and the aforementioned Kelly Marie Tran is a good example of such things....though we should have also mentioned the other actors in Star Wars that have also had such things happen to them, especially the minorities both from the past (best) and recent (Boyega).

A LOT of the toxic stuff these days I do not see coming from fans though. The usage of the term is a way to brush off criticism rather than to listen and respond constructively. I see far more of it coming from those trying to ignore the criticism and brush it aside. It's used as an insult rather than anything else.

AS it IS an insult, it infuriates those it insults. They may not even understand WHY they are reacting in this fashion, as it is more of a hidden insult, but instinctively they know what it is and respond in like fashion. This causes and explosion of criticism then and many times that criticism is neither well thought out nor even plausible. It's being said because people were made angry by being brushed off with an insult. I think this is a problem with the term nowdays and how it is being used.

There's good criticism, and there's poor criticism. The difference is understanding the difference and responding respectively to them in the degree needed. Instead of calling things toxic, I think we should instead refer to better terms and understand how and why we are calling it that.

For example, as this is supposed to be discussing Picard...I see Star Trek Picard as a response to criticism over Star Trek Discovery. I did not see a toxic response (or any toxicity in that degree) from the creators of Star Trek in this way (though as I've said, I may be out of the loop on this). I think they took the idea of criticism and applied it to the various shows they were making.

With STD, they made season 2 more reflective of the original series and tried to incorporate more designs from the Original series (uniforms, responses, characters) into it. I'm not sure if they were successful or not in answering those critcisms constructively, but to me it seemed at times almost like they were falling to nostalgia with some of the fallbacks.

At the same time, they created Picard as the answer for all those who wanted that followup to TNG and that era of TV series. I think they did a good job in regards to how to do so in this era of TV. They followed the modern way TV shows seem to be going when streaming, with a season long continuous plot that goes on for several episodes. We also had the strong nostalgia glasses of old characters showing up...and of course even responding to older criticism (of ST:Nemesis) in seeing another way for an old friend (Data) to be seen.

Maybe I'm just too easy to please in general, but I thought it was done well enough.

 

[Morrus]

I try to be positive in many instances. My wife, My niece, my grandson (not female, but of Japanese and African-American heritage) are all considered toxic and called names (and another dismissive comment unfit to be quoted here) and have been called that by the so called gentleman who was one of the Primary creators of The Last Jedi.

I’m sorry to hear you have a negative personal experience with a film maker.

However, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the meaning of toxic fan culture. It refers to armies of ‘fans’ running people like Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, Kathleen Kennedy etc. off the internet with systemic sexist and racist abuse. It refers to large-scale, ongoing abusive attacks by thousands upon thousands of people directed at single individuals.

That you weren’t aware of these things happening does not mean they didn’t, and are not continuing to.

Hopefully that clarifies what is being discussed here. “Toxic fan culture” refers to something very specific.

 

[Zardnaar]

It accurately describes the ones who attacked actors and other people in a toxic manner.

You’re making the same error that Z did up above. Toxic doesn’t mean “people who didn’t like Star Wars” it means “people who viciously attacked those involved online”. Especially Kelly Marie Tran and Kathleen Kennedy; or Leslie Jones.

I didn't attack Kelly Marie Team, Kathleen Kennedy or Ryan Johnson online but still got lumped in with the toxic ones. If I blame anyone it's usually the writers, the director bus just doing what the studio via the producer has told them to do.

Hell after Knives Out Ryan's better than JJ who isn't the best at doing anything original.

After RoS TLJ is starting to look better.

Back to Picard I've fallen behind on it but it's easier to watch so far than season one of TNG. I value consistency over peaks and valleys. I like Star Gate Atlantis over SGI even if the best if SGI was better than Atlantis. I can live with the odd dud episode but things get rough when you get dud seasons.

 

[GreyLord]

I’m sorry to hear you have a negative personal experience with a film maker.

However, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the meaning of toxic fan culture. It refers to armies of ‘fans’ running people like Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, Kathleen Kennedy etc. off the internet with systemic sexist and racist abuse. It refers to large-scale, ongoing abusive attacks by thousands upon thousands of people directed at single individuals.

That you weren’t aware of these things happening does not mean they didn’t, and are not continuing to.

Hopefully that clarifies what is being discussed here. “Toxic fan culture” refers to something very specific.

I understand some of that (and have defended Kennedy against attacks in some instances). I was unaware of Leslie Jones having it occur (but will look it up) and find that reprehensible.

I tried to explain above though that the way the term has evolved over the past two years has changed what the term is used as. Today, beginning with how it was utilize as a weapon against woman and minorities incorrectly, it has devolved to mean something very different than what some assume it means. Many who use it are not even women or minorities, but white males trying to write off criticism towards things they've made...and use it regardless of who they are talking too (if they are even aware of the race or gender of who they are talking to).

It is, quite frankly, used as an insult to brush off people that one does not want to listen to these days. This is why we see explosions of furious commentary that may or may not be well thought out after it's usage. Just like I exploded, that is minor compared to how many others react when it is used. It causes smaller criticism that is more acceptable into an explosion of being critical just to BE critical. Instead of calming people, it causes them to become even MORE critical.

As I have pointed out, I haven't been privy to this in regards to Star Trek Picard yet. As such, perhaps I am in the dark about it. I think the producers have avoided this type of situation with Star Trek thus far and thus it has kept a lot of the more nonsense and less useful criticisms refrained in the small corners of the internet they derive from. On the otherhand, I think they took a LOT of the criticisms of the first season of Star Trek Discovery and taking it constructively to build up Star Trek in areas where they felt it would appeal to fans (perhaps not the most angry fans, but to many who had criticisms of STD S1, but were reasonable or more reasonable about what and why they were unhappy or what changes they would have made).

 

[S'mon]

You're right, it's not the right expression. It's more that old theatrical practice of "putting my own stamp on it." It's both to show ownership and because critics tend to think that if a property doesn't evolve in some way, even something like a Shakespearean play, it's "tired and old."

Toxic critics are a much bigger problem than toxic fans IMO!

 

[Morrus]

It is, quite frankly, used as an insult to brush off people that one does not want to listen to these days.

You keep changing it back to that. I give up.