Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm sure a mistake was made. I guess it's a mistake illustrative of the mindset of the mistake maker - that he imputes racist & sexist motivations into criticism of his product.

Possibly. Or perhaps there WAS a lot of racism and sexism in the comments he was receiving (I mean, we all know what happened with Kelly Marie Tran) that he started to see it everywhere, even where it wasn't intended? I know that's what happened with Ghostbusters. There was SOOO much racist/sexist negative commentary at first, that any negative commentary got lumped in with that. I'm not saying it's right, but it at least makes sense.

I mean, in both cases the creators shouldn't have lashed back at the toxic fandom - they hit "innocent" bystanders and they absolutely caused the problem to get worse. It could be argued (and obviously it is argued) that they were just as toxic as the fans they meant to defend themselves against. They're also held to a higher standard. But they're human, and they were individual people being attacked by thousands. That's gotta be hard to take.

 

[GreyLord]

Presumably by mistake? I don't mean to defend whoever you're talking about (I don't even know who it is) but I would think that if someone called a woman of colour a "racist misogynist" then it seems likely that one of three things happened: 1) They were talking to someone else, or at least thought they were;. 2) They'd dealt recently with so many racist misogynists that they were trigger-happy on the subject; or 3) the person they were talking to said something that sounded racist and misogynist to them, and they called them on it.

It might be a flaw of mine, but I usually assume when something doesn't make sense (like your scenario) that a mistake has been made. Of course, if the mistake was pointed out, and the speaker doubled-down, then he was, in the very least, being overly defensive, possibly even toxic, maybe a total jerk. Again, I'm not trying to defend whoever it was (or at least, I only mean it theoretically), but when you consider how much racist misogyny that was flying around the Last Jedi, I can imagine how someone could have made the mistake of seeing it where it wasn't intended, in particular if he was dealing with multiple attackers at the same time.

(Again, I don't know your scenario, but if it was Twitter, or something like that, it would have been easy to respond to the wrong person. I don't know.)

It was not a mistake. He made it obvious and blatant it was not a mistake and he completely meant it. He may not have realized at first he was talking to minorities or women (on multiple occasions), it is likely he knew later when he kept on in the same fashion.

Anyways, it's off topic, sorry I lost my cool.

We probably should continue talking about Picard rather than Star Wars. In relation to this I still am ignorant how this term even really applies to ST: Picard regarding the fans of Star Trek, though as I have admitted I am probably ignorant on this in relation to them.

The show itself could be relatable to it though (doing an obvious redirect to the show). With the Synthetics and the persecution shown in the show, they in a way also withdrew. I think the show had some items that could be seen in relation to the things happening in our world today.

 

[DammitVictor]

There was SOOO much racist/sexist negative commentary at first, that any negative commentary got lumped in with that. I'm not saying it's right, but it at least makes sense.

Legitimate criticisms about the quality and/or creative directrion of a franchise are a convenient smokescreen for racist and sexist bigots to use to conceal their agendas. They don't hate women and minorities, they just hate the "(insert buzzword) political agenda" promoting diversity at the expense of historical accuracy or realism or established continuity or whatever.

But... you know... bigotry-fuelled smear campaigns are also frequently used as a convenient smokescreen for pretentious producers, directors, and showrunners to conceal their contempt for the original property and its fanbase and their disregard for their own mistakes.

Either way, it guarantees that legitimate criticism gets lost in the sound and the fury.

 

[Zardnaar]

Legitimate criticisms about the quality and/or creative directrion of a franchise are a convenient smokescreen for racist and sexist bigots to use to conceal their agendas. They don't hate women and minorities, they just hate the "(insert buzzword) political agenda" promoting diversity at the expense of historical accuracy or realism or established continuity or whatever.

But... you know... bigotry-fuelled smear campaigns are also frequently used as a convenient smokescreen for pretentious producers, directors, and showrunners to conceal their contempt for the original property and its fanbase and their disregard for their own mistakes.

Either way, it guarantees that legitimate criticism gets lost in the sound and the fury.

I suspect the more extreme ones in both sides are going to be very disappointed.

They won't be in a position to throw away tens of millions of dollars on botched rehashed reboots, while one would think after November the prize Twitter troll will be unemployed come January.

PSA. Don't use twitter. That is all

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I suspect the more extreme ones in both sides are going to be very disappointed.

They won't be in a position to throw away tens of millions of dollars on botched rehashed reboots, while one would think after November the prize Twitter troll will be unemployed.

I've always maintained that IMO, most fans would rather have more new stories set in the same setting than rehashes of old stories. For example, I'd rather have Picard, for any of it's flaws, than yet-another-actor-playing Kirk rebooted. Heck, I'd be happy with a totally new ship, with a totally new crew. I'd have been far happier with Discovery, all other things being the same, if it had been set forward in time with the Klingons being a completely new race discovered through the ship's strange mushroom jump-drive. I found it strange that it was supposed to fit into continuity.

(All that said, I LOVED Pike and crew from season two, but even then, if it was the same actors with new names, I'd have loved them just as much.)

 

[Dire Bare]

I'd have been far happier with Discovery, all other things being the same, if it had been set forward in time . . .

Good news! In ST: Discovery Season 3, the ship & crew have jumped into the far future, centuries after ST: Picard's timeline!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Good news! In ST: Discovery Season 3, the ship & crew have jumped into the far future, centuries after ST: Picard's timeline!

I know! I was thrilled.

Edit: It also helped that much of the characters were more likeable in Season Two...

 

[Hussar]

I've never seen anyone say:

"Most people hate Star Trek: Discovery/Star Wars: The Last Jedi in a perfectly legitimate manner. When we call people Toxic Fans, we're only talking about a tiny minority of the many (ex) fans who hate that series/film."

(Disclaimer: I have never watched ST: D)

Maybe not.

But, I have seen all sorts of pretty well mannered discussion on the good and the bad of a property. IE. perfectly legitimate hate. We just don't complain about that because, well, that's just discussion. Not liking something is perfectly fine. I don't like The Walking Dead. I lost interest in it after season 3 when they spent a year in the prison and did nothing to make it defensible. I don't like the last two seasons of Battlestar Galactica when they took it in a very different direction and picked up themes that I had no interest in.

See, here's the difference. I DON'T go into threads talking about The Walking Dead or BSG and start slagging off how terrible the show became. I don't spend endless time bitching about something that I don't like. If someone asks me, I'll tell them, but, I guess I just lack the arrogance to think that other people should give a rat's petoot about my negative opinion.

 

[Hussar]

@Zardnaar - I just want to say a big thank you and kudos for not taking what I said personally. It really wasn't meant as a shot. Although, fair enough, it certainly wasn't flattering. But, you took it with very good grace. Thank you.

------

Just to elucidate the difference between discussion and toxicity for a moment. Let's stick with Star Trek Discovery as an example. Someone might say that they don't like the new Klingon design because they liked the old design better. Ok, fair enough. That's pretty much the end of the conversation. There's not a whole lot else to discuss. Where it becomes toxic is this:

((After EVERY SINGLE episode of STisco))

Fan 1: Hey did you see it? It was pretty cool how character A did that thing with the thing to that other thing.
Fan 2: Yeah, I dunno, seemed kinda lame. I wish they wouldn't use that other thing so much.
Fan 3: NEW STAR TREK KLINGONS SUCK!
Fan 1: ....
Fan 2: ....
Fan 3: They only made the new Klingons for changes sake. Totally unnecessary. It's such crap.
Fan 1: Uhh, there wasn't even a Klingon in that last episode.
Fan 3: NEW KLINGONS SUCK!!
...

That's how you go from discussion to being toxic. When someone is unremittingly negative and attempts to turn every single conversation into another cesspool of bile so they can endlessly bitch and whine about whatever thing in fandom they happen not to like, THAT'S toxic.

And unfortunately, when some perfectly unsuspecting person happens to trot out the exact same talking points as the troll, well, they get painted green too. Which, I suspect, happens more often than not.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar - I just want to say a big thank you and kudos for not taking what I said personally. It really wasn't meant as a shot. Although, fair enough, it certainly wasn't flattering. But, you took it with very good grace. Thank you.

------

Just to elucidate the difference between discussion and toxicity for a moment. Let's stick with Star Trek Discovery as an example. Someone might say that they don't like the new Klingon design because they liked the old design better. Ok, fair enough. That's pretty much the end of the conversation. There's not a whole lot else to discuss. Where it becomes toxic is this:

((After EVERY SINGLE episode of STisco))

Fan 1: Hey did you see it? It was pretty cool how character A did that thing with the thing to that other thing.
Fan 2: Yeah, I dunno, seemed kinda lame. I wish they wouldn't use that other thing so much.
Fan 3: NEW STAR TREK KLINGONS SUCK!
Fan 1: ....
Fan 2: ....
Fan 3: They only made the new Klingons for changes sake. Totally unnecessary. It's such crap.
Fan 1: Uhh, there wasn't even a Klingon in that last episode.
Fan 3: NEW KLINGONS SUCK!!
...

That's how you go from discussion to being toxic. When someone is unremittingly negative and attempts to turn every single conversation into another cesspool of bile so they can endlessly bitch and whine about whatever thing in fandom they happen not to like, THAT'S toxic.

And unfortunately, when some perfectly unsuspecting person happens to trot out the exact same talking points as the troll, well, they get painted green too. Which, I suspect, happens more often than not.

I don't take anything personally online. My skins so thick I've got +1 AC.