Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[MarkB]

Also, what was going on at the very beginning, when Osha started choking in the helmet, and then Qimir's eyes went fully black, except for when there was a blue filter applied to the camera and then his eyes were just normal? That was confusing.

I think he was being caught up in Osha's nightmare - basically, she was unconsciously using the same power that her mother deliberately used on the padawan back in the original incident to make him desperate to go back to Coruscant.

 

[Maxperson]

The thing that kinda weirded me out about Osha and Mae is the idea that they are one person split into two bodies. At first, I thought they were building up to them being representative of the light and dark sides of the Force, with Osha initially light and Mae dark ... but when Osha went dark, Mae didn't exactly become light. She just sort of went neutral -- happy to let Qimir wipe her mind so Osha could run away and learn how to be a Sith with him. And Osha seemed kinda sad about that.

I think Mae did go to the light side. They made a point of dressing Mae in white and Osha in black for a reason. It's also not to my mind a neutral act to make the massive sacrifice of forgetting the sister you have loved and longed for your entire life in order for her to be safe. Even if Osha was dark side/Sith, it was still a sacrifice to save another.

As for Osha being sad, you still have your other emotions when you go to the dark side. The dark ones are just dominant. For all that Osha was sad, she didn't hesitate to let Mae make that sacrifice for her, or try to figure out ANY other way to accomplish safety without Mae losing her memory.

I still think that if one is light, the other must be dark and vice versa.

 

[pukunui]

I think he was being caught up in Osha's nightmare - basically, she was unconsciously using the same power that her mother deliberately used on the padawan back in the original incident to make him desperate to go back to Coruscant.

Oh, yes, of course! Torbin's eyes went fully black when he was being controlled by Mother Aniseya.

I think Mae did go to the light side. They made a point of dressing Mae in white and Osha in black for a reason. It's also not to my mind a neutral act to make the massive sacrifice of forgetting the sister you have loved and longed for your entire life in order for her to be safe. Even if Osha was dark side/Sith, it was still a sacrifice to save another.

As for Osha being sad, you still have your other emotions when you go to the dark side. The dark ones are just dominant. For all that Osha was sad, she didn't hesitate to let Mae make that sacrifice for her, or try to figure out ANY other way to accomplish safety without Mae losing her memory.

I still think that if one is light, the other must be dark and vice versa.

OK. Fair enough. That works for me. Thanks.


I think I would want to rewatch this show as a binge to get the whole story in one big chunk, but overall I think I liked it well enough to rate it fairly high. While I've gone on at length in this thread about being tired of the way the Jedi are portrayed, I'm not going to fault this show for that. It's more that Lucasfilm/Disney have seemingly painted themselves into a corner and the only way to give us a portrayal of the Jedi as a genuine force for good is to either go farther back in time or follow up with Rey post-ST (which hopefully will come to fruition and not become vaporware).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Organisations can never be good, only individuals can be good.

 

[pukunui]

Organisations can never be good, only individuals can be good.

Sure. Which individual Jedi in The Acolyte was “a force for good”? I don’t think any of them were really.

Vernestra is duplicitous, more concerned with maintaining the Jedi Order’s reputation than doing the right thing. Her former padawan has whip scars on his back, which also reflects badly on her.

Sol had poor judgment.

Torbin and Kelnacca both retreated from the world.

Indara also willingly engaged in a cover-up.

Yord was lawful stupid and got himself killed but at least he was trying to be a hero in the process.

Jecki had some potential but died too soon.

Mog seems like a bit of a wet blanket.

None of them really struck me as being “a force for good”, unlike say Ahsoka or Obi-Wan.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sure. Which individual Jedi in The Acolyte was “a force for good”? I don’t think any of them were really.

Jedi don’t have a monopoly on good (thinking that was their mistake). Bazil is good. The senator who wants to reign in the Jedi was good. Mother Aniseya was good.

And, of course, Qimir is good, from a certain point of view.

But it’s a tragedy - good characters (e.g. Banquo) are not (for the most part) supposed to survive, if they did it wouldn’t be tragic. Macbeth? Hamlet? Not good guys. Even Romeo was a murderer.

 

[Ryujin]

Sure. Which individual Jedi in The Acolyte was “a force for good”? I don’t think any of them were really.

Vernestra is duplicitous, more concerned with maintaining the Jedi Order’s reputation than doing the right thing. Her former padawan has whip scars on his back, which also reflects badly on her.

Sol had poor judgment.

Torbin and Kelnacca both retreated from the world.

Indara also willingly engaged in a cover-up.

Yord was lawful stupid and got himself killed but at least he was trying to be a hero in the process.

Jecki had some potential but died too soon.

Mog seems like a bit of a wet blanket.

None of them really struck me as being “a force for good”, unlike say Ahsoka or Obi-Wan.

These days I'm thinking of The Jedi and Sith more in terms of Law and Chaos, than Good and Evil. The Jedi suppress emotion and work for the status quo, which sounds Lawful Neutral? The Sith are all about passion and emotion, so Chaotic Neutral?

 

[pukunui]

Jedi don’t have a monopoly on good (thinking that was their mistake). Bazil is good. The senator who wants to reign in the Jedi was good. Mother Aniseya was good.

I feel like we’re talking past each other here, so I give up.

And, of course, Qimir is good, from a certain point of view.

I’ve never liked that “certain point of view” thing. It’s so slimy and disingenuous. The Sith are evil. They just want people to think they’re not. And shame on Obi-Wan for using that same phrase to justify his lies about Luke’s father!

But it’s a tragedy

On its own merits, I can appreciate that about The Acolyte. I think perhaps tragedy is not what I should be watching at this moment in time.

These days I'm thinking of The Jedi and Sith more in terms of Law and Chaos, than Good and Evil. The Jedi suppress emotion and work for the status quo, which sounds Lawful Neutral? The Sith are all about passion and emotion, so Chaotic Neutral?

Yeah, I guess. But that’s not what I want from Star Wars. Rebels and the Bad Batch (and the better parts of the Clone Wars) are good examples of what I want. Who’s a good guy / hero and who’s a bad guy / villain is more clear-cut in those shows. Yeah, they’re aimed at kids so that makes sense. Maybe I just prefer Star Wars as a kids show.


Oh, I also really enjoyed Jedi: Fallen Order and Jedi: Survivor.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Jedi don’t have a monopoly on good (thinking that was their mistake). Bazil is good. The senator who wants to reign in the Jedi was good. Mother Aniseya was good.

And, of course, Qimir is good, from a certain point of view.

But it’s a tragedy - good characters (e.g. Banquo) are not (for the most part) supposed to survive, if they did it wouldn’t be tragic. Macbeth? Hamlet? Not good guys. Even Romeo was a murderer.

Most of the characters you described as good did survive.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Most of the characters you described as good did survive.

Yeah, that’s why I said mostly. Minor good characters (such as the nurse and the friar in R&J) or characters with an important role (McDuff, Horatio) might get to live, but there are usually “good” characters who exist only only to have tragic deaths. Aside from the aforementioned Banquo, Mercutio and Ophelia are characters of this type. This is the role of Jecki and Yord.

Viewed as a tragedy, Sol is the central character in the Acolyte, comparable to MacBeth, Hamlet and Romeo. Osha and Mae are more comparable to McDuff.