Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

[hawkeyefan]

Well the extended universe lasted 30 years and feeds into audiences expectations. Sure they decleared it non canon but it doesn't make it go away. The best of it was also up there with ESB.

Disney obviously chose a different approach and hence the backlash, boycotts and financial problems (toylines, Solo). There's also an article floating around abut the typical Star Wars fan. It's a 43 year old white male and I'm younger than that so you had 30 years of experience and expectations Disney nuked. They're the ones who huy the toys, comics etc and have been doing it since the early 90s if not child hood Marvel comics.
And some of those stories were very good. Knights of the Old Republic, Thrawn Trilogy/Duology, anything by Zahn/ Drew Kapeshyn, Han Solo Trilogy. They also had worse than TLJ but it's open season on that stuff as well.

Disney can do what they want it's there franchise now. Doesn't mean you have to buy into it. Haven't bought any of the new novel or comics just read the wiki. It's just fatigue 25 years of novels don't really want to start over an do it all over again especially when the new novels aren't that well regarded even if you like the new movies.

Yeah, man.....that very brief description fits me, and I was around for all that stuff. Star Wars was the first movie I saw in the theater. I read the Zahn books when they came out, I played the RPG of the time from West End. I had plenty of the Marvel comics, and then Dark Empire when Dark Horse picked up the license. I was the perfect age for all of that stuff.

But that doesn't mean that they should be making movies "for me". I have no expectations for the films based on the comics or novels. In fact, I prefer they actively avoid following the paths of the books or comics. I'd prefer something new.

They didn't "nuke" anything. The Zahn books are still on a shelf in my basement if I feel like I'd enjoy a re-read. They're not gone. They aren't considered canon...but so what? I don't think that's a factor of the quality of any of the extended universe stuff.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The thing is, though, they really didn't. George Lucas ignored and overrode the EU just as freely, first with the prequels and then with things like the Clone Wars show. If he'd made the sequels, he'd have happily ignored the EU canon entirely.

All that Disney did was be honest and up-front about their intentions.



I know the feeling, and I've had similar misgivings myself - not about the new trilogy, but about the old EU material.

As much as I understood the attraction of putting our favourite characters through all-new adventures, and new trials and tribulations, it never sat well with me, because I felt that by the end of the original trilogy they'd earned their victory and their happily-ever-after. I think that's the main reason why, although I've enjoyed some individual EU material, I've never been an enthusiast of it as a body of work.

And frankly, what the new canon put our old beloved characters through in its backstory isn't any worse than some of what they've been through in EU material.

I enjoyed the X-Wing series and the Zahn novels mostly, because they maintained the trajectory of the previous movies - things were still to be dealt with, but the heroes still worked to improve things. Han and Leia became parents.
There were also other novels I enjoyed, but the whole Vong arc was problematic for similar reasons - everything turns to sh*t. But at least we got to still see it all up close, and could feel the losses and wins directly, instead of just being faced with the aftermath.

The new movies would have probably worked a lot better for me if they didn't have to include the old cast. Just set it a century later or so, our heroes lived happily ever after, until they died natural deaths. A new threat emerges, and we need new heroes to deal with it. You can't really continue where the cast left off, and if you need to "reset" the setting to go back to where its story and appeal was the strongest, at least you won't trample on their accomplishments directly.
Maybe the old cast could have still been around as historical records or interactive holograms and force ghosts. But would that have been enough for fans that wanted to see their heroes one last time?

I guess you can't really win.

Maybe a completely new trilogy - even by Rian Johnson could work, as long as it's removed from the original trilogy.


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Regarding the whole training and Jedi Power Level: One thing to note is that in the prequels Jedi really seem a lot more powerful than in the OT. In the Prequels, all the Jedi we see have received Jedi training since a young age. And Yoda and Obi Wan are both really old in the OT.
It seems really plausible that all the training counted for something and is what allowed them to do all those tricks, and that age is wearing down on Obi Wan and Yoda and maybe even Vader.
Rey's power level is definitely not Prequel level yet, however. She seems to pick up things faster than Luke, though.
But I can also see that "The Force Awakens" suggests more is going on.

I think the bigger problem is that it feels like Rey has things a bit too easy. Heroes need to win in the end, but they also need to fail. The second movie in the OT was the place for Luke's biggest failures, arguably - he struggled on Hoth, he finally finds his master, but proves somewhat inadequate and overworked, and then he runs off to save his friends, only to lose a hand, have his convictions shattered and need to be saved himself, and he still loses a friend. But Rey's journey in TLJ lacks that level of failure, and her struggle seems rather shallow - she might not turn Kylo Ren to her side, and find not out what she wants about her parents, but she overpowers Snoke's guards and Kylo Ren and than saves the remainder of the resistance. I don't think that makes her a Mary Sue, but it means her story is kinda bland, we can't fear as well with her and enjoy her highs and lows. (I suppose orphans might feel different.)
Maybe that was fully intentional and for good reasons, but I think it did work to its detriment. But maybe they feared of writing too much weakness into her, because that could be seen as misogynistic. But I think one of the most important lessons to learn for men and women is that failures happen. Your strength is not in never failing, but in being able to fail and pick yourself up afterwards.
If we portray our heroes as flawless that always succeeds, it's not just boring - it makes people question that they could be "heroes" or excel at anything because it's supposed to be easy to heroes (or geniuses) and if it's not to you, you're just not the type for it. (I feel that is particularly a problem in pop culture when it comes to "STEM" - movie and TV scientists might have asocial tendencies as flaws, but in their chosen specialties - if they aren't just omni-competent - they don't make errors. But Trial & Error is fundamental. You need the "fortitude" to accept that you'll struggle a lot until you have a solution - but that will make the solution feel more satisfying.)

 

[Maxperson]

Obi-Wan describes the Force to him and then says “let go your conscious self” and then he’s blocking blasts from the training drone while blindfolded. This is also the extent of his light saber training that we see before he faces Vader. Yes, he loses, but he puts up a good fight. He impresses Vader and even gets a good shot in.

That's like saying someone who learns how to screw in a screw is a trained mechanic.

Yes, Luke trains with Yoda for a few days. He’s immediately able to start floating rocks and make crazy leaps and so forth. Is this really all that extensive? I don’t know, really....it’s hard to say how much time passes. Really not a lot, though....somewhere between a couple of days and a couple of weeks. However long Han and the others are stuck in the asteroid field and then on Bespin.

And one of the lessons Yoda teaches Luke, which he fails to grasp for some time, is that there is no difference between lifting a rock and lifting an x-wing. Which seems to be the only comment in the original films that compares one use of the Force with another in terms of effort.

Luke then presumably goes on to train some more in between Empire and Return. Again, hard to say how long. Hard to imagine that they’d hold off on rescuing Han very long, but we have no indication on how long it’s been. And when he shows up, he doesn’t seem all that much more capable with the Force. But Yoda does say that his training is complete.

So....based on Yoda’s statements, it seems like complete Jedi training is somewhere between a couple weeks and maybe a couple of months?

We see a few days in the movie, but nothing says it was only a few days. We do see that Anakin at about age 6 not become a Jedi Knight until he's at least 18, if not older. That's at LEAST 12 years to become trained enough to become a Jedi. The younglings were even younger than he was when he started.

And do we not have hints that both Luke and Anakin have used the Force in their youth? In Anakin’s case, it’s explicitly stated. His instincts at racing and his knack for engineering are related to the Force. In Luke’s case, there are only hints that he’s done so....describing the shot he made in Beggar’s Canyon compared to the vent on the Death Star, when trained rebel pilots imply it’s an incredibly difficult shot.

I was hitting bullseyes with a rifle when I was 10. Being a good shot doesn't in any way indicate the force was being used. He wasn't flying an X-Wing when he shot the whomp rats.

So I’d say we have enough information to assume that Rey has been using the Force subconsciously to help survive for about 12 years, in an environment that is basically a giant obstacle course populated by hostile beings. So even if we’re generous about Luke’s training and say it was 6 months, Rey had about 24 times as much training. Yes, she lacked a teacher, but I would expect most folks would accept that she’d have some level of raw ability or affinity with the Force.

Do we really need things to be so explicitly stated?

To achieve the level of ability that she has, yes she needs a teacher. At least to achieve it in under a dozen years. That goes for Ray, too.

 

[Zardnaar]

At mustrum.

The Vong books were a problem, and the EU novels never really recovered afterwards. I did like the Legacy of the Force books and comics and having a death stick using Skywalker was interesting.

You can have good SW stories no Skywalker's and good Skywalker stories though. Old legends was very mixed bag.

 

[pukunui]

The younglings were even younger than he was when he started.

Yes, but how much of their training was Jedi indoctrination? Yes, they had lightsaber practice and probably telekinesis practice, but much of it would've been relatively mundane lessons on meditation, not forming attachment, etc etc. Undoubtedly also normal school stuff, like reading and writing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Took Luke 7 years after RotJ to become a Jedi master.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, but how much of their training was Jedi indoctrination? Yes, they had lightsaber practice and probably telekinesis practice, but much of it would've been relatively mundane lessons on meditation, not forming attachment, etc etc. Undoubtedly also normal school stuff, like reading and writing.

Well, it only takes a few days to go from ignorant to a Jedi Knight according to some in this thread, so it really doesn't matter how much was other stuff. 5 minutes a day would still see them be full fledged Jedi Knights within a year at that rate.

 

[Zardnaar]

So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

I don't know.

But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)



I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. Let them enjoy what you did.

Well, it only takes a few days to go from ignorant to a Jedi Knight according to some in this thread, so it really doesn't matter how much was other stuff. 5 minutes a day would still see them be full fledged Jedi Knights within a year at that rate.

Which makes a lot of the PT and OT pointless.

Anyone know how to stop chain quoting I think fat fingers hit a forum button.

 

[pukunui]

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]: How do you feel about the inconsistent travel times in the various Star Wars movies? Are you able to handwave them away with the whole “speed of plot” thing? If so, can you not also handwave away inconsistent training times as a “speed of plot” thing?

Audiences have shorter attention spans these days. Ain’t nobody got time for training montages anymore!

As for the chain quoting, you were advised upthread to clear your cache and close all ENWorld windows on your phone. If that doesn’t work, you’ll have to just manually edit out the extraneous quoted posts.

 

[Zardnaar]

So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

I don't know.

But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)



I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. Let them enjoy what you did.

Which makes a lot of the PT and OT pointless.

Anyone know how to stop chain quoting I think fat fingers hit a forum button.

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]: How do you feel about the inconsistent travel times in the various Star Wars movies? Are you able to handwave them away with the whole “speed of plot” thing? If so, can you not also handwave away inconsistent training times as a “speed of plot” thing?

Audiences have shorter attention spans these days. Ain’t nobody got time for training montages anymore!

As for the chain quoting, you were advised upthread to clear your cache and close all ENWorld windows on your phone. If that doesn’t work, you’ll have to just manually edit out the extraneous quoted posts.

Hand waving travel times us fine they didn't make any effort at handwaving training time.

Cleared cache etc on phone still doing it. Sigh. I can switch to PC apologies all.