Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Zardnaar

Legend
@Zardnaar The data you’re citing is all about the fanbase prior to The Force Awakens being released. Based on that, it’s not surprising to find out that the “average fan” was someone who grew up on the original movies.

But that doesn’t mean that’s who the movie IS or SHOULD BE aimed at.

The goal is to reach a new generation of fans. To get viewers interested enough that they continue to enjoy the films and merchandise for decades.

Now, there’s no reason that the films cannot appeal to both a new audience and the traditional audience. I’d argue that these films do exactly that. But there’s a clear “passing the torch” element in these new films that seems to bother some fans.

Imagine if the episodes had been released chronologically. I would expect many fans would have lost their minds when Obi-Wan was killed off to start the second trilogy and pass the torch to a new hero. The criticisms of Luke would have been very similar to those of Rey...with one significant difference. People would have said the only thing special about Luke is that he’s the son of Anakin.

Trailer for IX, why does it have Lando in it and the Emperors laughing?

TFA relied heavily on nostalgia.

You need a certain amount of fan service in established franchises. Sure you can aim your movie at whoever you like but they took a 700 million dunking on TLJ compared with TFA. People like saying it made 1.3 Billion, it didn't the studio only gets a % of that, TFA made 2 billion apparently the studio made 700 million. They lost money on Solo, the toys are not selling the evidence would suggest they should perhaps be aiming there movie at the fans. Its not like Star Wars was driving away female fans, and kids won't care to much about what type of space wizards they see onscreen. The hard core Star Wars fans probably would not care to much if you had a female protagonist, we've had plenty of them in the last 30 years consuming the old legends material and playing the games like KoToR. Serve up crap its gonna get dumped on (sorry Jar Jar its been 20 years though and much alcohol).

You have to identify your target audience with products and "everyone" is a bit vague. You can also keep the fans happy and get new ones- 5E D&D for example.
 
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Rey repeating Luke's journey is probably a deliberate feature.
The idea of TFA seemed to simply retall the original Star Wars success story. Star War got as popular as it got because it had Luke's heroic journey and the underdog rebellion vs the evil overboarding Empire. If they want to recapture that success and build a new series of movies on that, they need to tell that story again to the "modern" audience. And by making the hero a female, they might also grow the audience a bit, because maybe a lot of men would already watch Star Wars just for the space fights and the "brand" image, but women might need something extra. It's basically dragging Star Wars out of a "male nerd" niche.

But maybe really thatis part of the problem - if there is a problem with a billion dollar franchise at all - maybe it's all a bit too much formula, and not enough novelty. That was something Rian Johnson might have felt, hence "subverting all the expectations". But while Abrams might have gone overboard on the copy & paste, Rian Johnson seemed to have forgotten that the subversion needs to open interesting new story avenues. At the end of TLJ, it feels to me like we sit in front of a big nothing. There is no open question or clear direction where to, except the most generic: "Guess the Resistance has to rebuild itself somehow!" At the end of ESB, you could wonder about how they could get Han out of Jabba's hands, and how Luke would deal with the news about Vader. Did Vaders offer of ruling the galaxy together mean anything?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
@Zardnaar, I empathize with some of your issues with TLJ and don't think questioning whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not is inherently sexist, but I think you are going a bit overboard in trying to line her up with Luke and compare them in every detail. No matter what way you look at it, their "Mary Sueness" is similar.

The only thing that bothered me about Rey's Mary Sueness in TFA was how she could hang with Kylo Ren in a lightsabre duel. I know he was injured, but it still seemed a bit absurd and definitely damaged my suspension of disbelief. But overall she wasn't really any more Mary Sueish than Luke. If she was, it wasn't by much - and not worth getting upset about.

The Mary Sue is a female version of wish fulfillment. Luke, and superheroes in general, are male versions of wish fulfillment. I don't know why female wish fulfillment would be any worse, except insofar as TFA felt like fan fiction and the Mary Sue is derived from fan fiction. The more obvious difference is that it is generally inserted into contexts that have been historically male dominant (e.g. superhero and action films).

I think we can all agree that female characters should have equal or at least simlar place in films, even historically male dominant ones. Or at least I hope we can agree on that!

That said, where I differ from the "orthodox liberal view" is in two ways. One has absolutely nothing to do with sex or gender and is more about creativity. I am all for seeing more female heroes in film, but I would like to see more new properties. Do we need an all-female Ghostbusters, Ocean's 8 or, gods forbid, a Jane Bond? Why not something new? Similarly with Rey: aside from the lightsabre duel, my main issue with her is creative: she's simply too similar to Luke in too many ways. Not exact, mind you, but it would have been nice to see them come up with something a bit different.

Secondly, I think these female heroes end up being too paper thin in terms of to what degree they are actually female; in a lot of cases we are getting female versions of male heroes, but not truly feminine heroes. What that would look like, I don't know, and could be any any number of things - but rather than saying, "Let's do a female Luke," I'd rather see "Let's see what a female force prodigy might look like." Or rather than saying, "Let's wear pant-suits so we can fit into the male work environment," why not say "Let's wear what we want to wear and define ourselves."

Now the potential problem with taking that approach is that it implies intrinsic differences between men and women, which some take issue with (despite, well, biology). But aside from biology, let us remember that Star Wars is based on mythic archetypes; the lightsaber is a sword, which is a rather phallic representation of spiritual will and power. It even becomes "erect" when activated. What might a (non-phallic) female force weapon look like? Would it even be a weapon? There are interesting creative possibilities there that haven't been explored, at least in the films.

Regardless, I think the issue needs to mostly be taken up by women, not men. Women need to decide how the heroine looks, what a female force prodigy would be like. I just hope we see more versions of actual heroines, and not just "female heroes." I don't think Rey utterly fails in that regard (or Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, etc), but I would like to see them go further. Maybe the first step is "female heroes," and then next we can see what a heroine might look like.

But I will throw in one suggestion: how about a heroine that doesn't solve all conflicts through violence? Or at least is maybe more of an aikido master than a boxer? I remember the great Ursula Le Guin talking about this, taking issue with the notion promulgated in cinema and genre literature, that all conflicts must be solved through violence. I don't care if this hypothetical hero/ine was male or female, but all I'm saying is that if a heroine wants to pave new territory and not just remake everything in a female version of traditional male tropes, why not a heroine that says "enough of the violence - there has to be another way."

Maybe I watch a lot more anime and cartoons than you, but from what I’ve seen, the heroine who refuses to solve a conflict with violence, and thereby does what couldn’t have been done through violence, is a very well represented trope. Almost stereotypical, I’d go so far as to say.

Show me a male hero who does that, and I’ll be impressed and surprised. (Well, only in terms of recent works. Cap, Superman, Spider-Man, the Flash, and even Batman, have all done that many times in the comics and cartoons, it’s just more common for Wonder Woman, Magical Girl Heroes like Sailor Moon, etc).

I think it’s more interesting to see heroes like Carol Danvers, whose story doesn’t revolve around her gender, alongside heroes like Wonder Woman, whose gender is relevant but whose story wouldn’t be completely different if she were a guy.
 

Mercurius

Legend
[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION], I watch absolutely zero anime or cartoons, so can't comment on that.

And yeah, it would be nice to see a male hero that doesn't solve everything through brute force.

I don't disagree with what you said re: Carol Danvers and WW, but also think there's room for exploring gender-flavored themes and ideas (e.g. "How might a woman use the Force differently than a man?").
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION], I watch absolutely zero anime or cartoons, so can't comment on that.

And yeah, it would be nice to see a male hero that doesn't solve everything through brute force.

I don't disagree with what you said re: Carol Danvers and WW, but also think there's room for exploring gender-flavored themes and ideas (e.g. "How might a woman use the Force differently than a man?").

My issue is, why would a woman use the force differently, in a universe or where they seem to take it for granted that female and male humans (much less other species) aren’t meaningfully different? Regardless of any “liberal orthodoxy” or whatever the phrase was in your earlier post, the SW Galaxy doesn’t pay any mind whatsoever to any meaningful difference between human sexes or genders, beyond some elements of fashion and gendered pronouns and titles.

If you swap Han and Leia in the OT, the audience will feel differently about them, but nothing about the fictional universe actually changes, for instance.
 




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