D&D 5E Starter Set Character Sheet Revealed!

[Dausuul]

And what's the in-game justification for why an NPC wizard has re-charge spells and a ton of hit points, where a PC wizard has AEDU spells and healing surges? Why does a PC fighter need a +X magic weapon in order to strike with the same accuracy as an NPC fighter?

I'm generally in favor of a strong relationship between mechanics and fiction, but I don't see a problem here. In my view, the PC wizard and the NPC wizard are following different (albeit closely related) arcane traditions. By default, the NPC's tradition is not a class option available to players, in much the same way that "red dragon" is not a race option available to players.

When players ask how they can learn the NPC's techniques, my response is "You've got no idea how she does that. If you want to know, you'll have to go investigate." If a player is interested enough to follow up, I work with him or her to define the particular thing the PC wants to learn, then homebrew class abilities that are consistent with what the NPC does. I had this happen once in 4E with a solo NPC assassin who had a bunch of poison-related powers. The PC rogue was instantly enamored of the assassin and wanted to learn his abilities, to the point of going out and convincing the assassin to train him; so I worked out a way to make it happen. (Sadly, the campaign ended before he got to exercise the option.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

And what's the in-game justification for why an NPC wizard has re-charge spells and a ton of hit points, where a PC wizard has AEDU spells and healing surges? Why does a PC fighter need a +X magic weapon in order to strike with the same accuracy as an NPC fighter?

What's the in-game justification for every wizard casting spells the same way even if PC wizards are all adventuring wizards who focus on adventuring rather than what would look good at court?

 

[ThirdWizard]

That justification, while valid on a gamist level, does not represent anything within the game world. Where anything within the game world reflects something that exists only in the real world, it violates causality.

There's no way I can possibly suspend disbelief that far.

Can you not suspend belief when reading a book? When watching a movie? Because, those are all determined by fiat.

 

[Remathilis]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That justification, while valid on a gamist level, does not represent anything within the game world. Where anything within the game world reflects something that exists only in the real world, it violates causality.

There's no way I can possibly suspend disbelief that far.

Whereas I, on the other hand, would have a very hard time suspending disbelief to the point that I saw the game rules as more than an approximation of the world they are representing.

 

[Obryn]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

Which is why a 1st level character shouldn't ever encounter the higher level versions. Because there are no free range minions.

 

[Dausuul]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

4E legion devils really grind my gears. IMO, they fly in the face of good world-building. It's one thing to have the occasional "leveled-up" monster, but except in cases where a monster is called out as being special, players should be able to develop a consistent sense of how much of a threat a given monster poses.

I'm not normally one to complain about 4E being "video-gamey," but that particular element is straight out of MMOs*. I trust that in 5E, it will be sent straight back.

[SIZE=-2]*Well, computer RPGs in general. I still get annoyed when I think about the bar brawl in "Mask of the Betrayer." Really? My 19th-level party is having trouble winning a bar brawl? Is the bar hosting a legendary drunken master convention or something?[/SIZE]

 

[Neonchameleon]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

This means that either 4E Legion Devils are built differently from any other monster in 4E in that the same monster at multiple levels has multiple stats all of which are minion or there's some fascinating worldbuilding going on there in that legion devils scale with the PCs in a way no other monsters I can think of do.

4E legion devils really grind my gears. IMO, they fly in the face of good world-building. It's one thing to have the occasional "leveled-up" monster, but except in cases where a monster is called out as being special, players should be able to develop a consistent sense of how much of a threat a given monster poses.

I'm not normally one to complain about 4E being "video-gamey," but that particular element is straight out of MMOs*. I trust that in 5E, it will be sent straight back.

[SIZE=-2]*Well, computer RPGs in general. I still get annoyed when I think about the bar brawl in "Mask of the Betrayer." Really? My 19th-level party is having trouble winning a bar brawl? Is the bar hosting a legendary drunken master convention or something?[/SIZE]

Oddly enough this is something I've never experienced in 4e - but was having problems with in Pathfinder two days ago, with a couple of dozen fifth level thugs that were as powerful as the old local thief guildmaster.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

No D&D edition is remotely capable of genuine "simulation", as has been discussed at huge length on multiple threads, so that's a very disingenuous approach. Every edition has places where it's "simulation" collapses. The actual problem isn't so much the Legion Devils (though they did stretch them too far), it's the design of Magic Missile being incompatible with one of the basic ways 4E works. 4E is as capable of any other edition of verisimilitude and creating a consistent world, though (requires a different approach to 3E, but that required a different approach to 2E, etc.).

A simple fix would be to have Magic Missile require an attack roll on Minions only, and not damage them on a miss, just like AoE abilities which otherwise do damage on a miss.

I'm not normally one to complain about 4E being "video-gamey," but that particular element is straight out of MMOs*. I trust that in 5E, it will be sent straight back.

[SIZE=-2]*Well, computer RPGs in general. I still get annoyed when I think about the bar brawl in "Mask of the Betrayer." Really? My 19th-level party is having trouble winning a bar brawl? Is the bar hosting a legendary drunken master convention or something?[/SIZE]

Mask of the Betrayer is a recent example, but this has been happening not only in CRPGs since at least the 1980s, but in Pen & Paper RPGs since at least the same time. I've seen tons of examples of encounters in various RPGs that involved implausibly tough generic thugs or minor villains or the like, who are obviously only that tough to inconvenience expected-power-level PCs. Blaming MMOs (as people are wont to do) is like acting like kids today invented knife crime or something.

 

[pemerton]

All I need to know about 4e simulation, I learned when I discovered a legion devil, whether they are level 6, 11, 16, or 21, can all be taken out by a first level wizard with magic missile.

You've had a few replies to this.

I think [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION]'s is the best.

What Legion Devils are is fodder for diabolic encounters. You use the version of the appropriate level for your PC. No single campaign has to us all of them, but if you find yourself, in your particular campaign, revisitng minion devils of a higher level, you can easily enough describe them as elite legionairres.

People contain about 4e being all mechanical and leaving no room for GM judgement, but this is precisely the place where it does leave such room - it's the GM's job to narrate the fiction so that the mechanical framing fits within it.