D&D 5E Starter Set Command Spell

[pemerton]

As far as I can tell, it is only immortals who know Supernal that get that ability. And devas don't automatically start with Supernal, they start with "Common and a choice of two others". I probably wouldn't let Supernal be one of those other two languages unless there was a really compelling story reason.

Agreed on all that. I'm thinking of devas (like, say, the deva in my campaign!) who have the Linguist feat (or the Eberron mark upgrade) and/or Supernal from a book imp familiar. I quite like languages in the game, and don't like the idea that the deva can easily circumvent a good chunk of that.

I'm sure for others (perhaps many or most others) it's not a big deal.

EDIT: Thanks for the feat reference. By my reckoning that predates Essentials, and so (at the time) gives devas a universal transmitter but not receiver. I suspect that's why my player hasn't taken it for his PC.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I'd be fascinated to know how they're going to determine the bolded bit, and why you believe this is the "new plan". Is there a L&L to that effect or something?

As for "a better game", well, I think that depends how much you like house rules. Personally, my experience with them is very mixed. I sometimes like my own. I almost never like other people's. I suspect most people are similar. My favourite games have required few/no house rules, though, and I doubt that's coincidence.

How well timed.

Today's L&L appears to cover your question.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think it's subjective to say "being able to memorize a short meaning is better than having to reference a long form physical text". I do think that is an objective statement of fact. Now it's subjective if the short meaning conveys enough, or if the long text provides more meaningful information, and that sort of thing. But all things being equal, it IS superior to be able to easily commit something to memory than it is to have to reference it in a text, and I don't think that can be rationally argued with.

You're kind of proving my point here. "All things being equal" - but all things are not equal. The context in which the powers/spells exist is very different in these two editions - so it's a different context (whereas it's similar between 5E and other editions, albeit not identical). For my money. FWIW, I do agree that "all things being equal", what you say is true!

We're talking about one specific spell, and I was not equating it with any other spells.

I was talking about the greater context - my argument is that comparing these two is meaningless without that, but I think that point has been made sufficiently so I won't argue it further. That explains why were were cross-arguing, though.

I don't recall if it was an L&L or a tweet or an interview or live stream or what, but he definitely absolutely said it. They are only issuing errata if people say it's really necessary for their games and they want errata issued, and they will continue to survey people on such things after the game comes out. If most people are dealing with an issue just fine in their game without the errata, they won't release errata for it (probably just have an advice column on it somewhere).

I'll be fascinated to see if it actually works out like that.

This will, of course, drive the pedants of the world bonkers. But fortunately, I think the overwhelming bulk of players will like that policy.

Interesting speculation. I actually don't believe the bulk of players will care either way. As for "pedants", well, glass houses etc applies to us both I suspect!

I do hope they do a bit better than "advice columns" of the past if they go that way, because D&D's history with "advice columns", is frankly, terrible. Whereas most of 4E's errata were extremely good (most!).

The reason, I think, is obvious. 4E's errata were discussed by multiple people and tested internally, and certainly subjected to rational analysis. Whereas most "advice columns" are the opinion of a single staffer, often lacking knowledge in the area of rules he's dealing with, and clearly, in most cases, completely untested and off-the-cuff opinion, and subjected to little or no sanity-checking. So you often fairly silly solutions or takes on things (flashback to Sage Advice, but it's continued through the years whenever such a thing has existed).

So I'm okay with "advice columns" if all advice is considered by multiple staffers and tested, but if not, that would actually make things worse for "pedants" like myself!

 

[the Jester]

My concern goes the other way - by the wording of the DMG, devas don't have any sort of universal language, but by the RC wording they get univeral input (but not output).

Whoa, I'd never noticed this before... damn.

...devas don't automatically start with Supernal, they start with "Common and a choice of two others". I probably wouldn't let Supernal be one of those other two languages unless there was a really compelling story reason.

Agreed. However, in the case of the pc in my game, he spent the feat for it and he was a replacement pc for a dead guy, and he entered the game in middle-paragon levels.

It's from Dragon Magazine 374:

Remembered Mother Tongue
Prerequisite: 11th level, deva
Benefit: You can speak, read, and write Supernal. If you wish it, listeners who don’t speak Supernal can understand your words as if you used their native language.

Ahh, good, I was going to have to plead ignorance, as almost all my 4e D&D stuff is at my gf's house. Thanks!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

How well timed.

Today's L&L appears to cover your question.

Thaumaturge.

OHO!

That's very interesting.

The devil, of course, is entirely in the details. For example:

To start with, we’ll assess the issue’s impact on the game. Let’s say a number of players complain that a class is too weak and refuse to play it. But at the same time, people who play that class enjoy it and give it high marks. In this case, we won’t change anything. But if no one is playing the class even though they want to, then we need to look at different options.

This seems likely to be an ultra-subjective process, given the language. Obviously there will never, ever, be a situation where literally no-one plays a class, and literally no-one sings it's praise. Every class in D&D history, no matter how abysmal, has had some fans.

So if Mike means that literally, he should really be saying "We're never changing anything!". I presume, though, as is the wont of game designers, and especially Mike Mearls, speaking somewhat metaphorically/exaggeratedly, and no-one actually just means "sufficiently few people" and so on.

Thank you for the link!

 

[Dausuul]

Why would you ever want to carry around and refer to an instruction sheet, when the alternative is an easily memorized encapsulation of the concept? Sorry, but one IS superior to the other.

Where is this idea of "easily memorized" 4E powers coming from? That doesn't describe 4E at all in my recollection. I saw people get the details of their 4E powers wrong all the time, and I was forever checking my power cards when I was a player. True, I eventually did memorize the details of the powers I used a lot... but I also memorized the details of my go-to spells in 3E. I don't recall one being easier to memorize than the other.

The all-text format for spells supports a tight link between the rules and the fiction. The 4E approach encourages keeping the two strictly separate. Some people prefer one, some prefer the other. I'm in the "tight link" camp. Regardless of which is used, the wording should be concise and clear, but that's a question of editing rather than format. (Mr. Gygax, I'm looking at you.)

I've also come to believe that RPG books need to do more than just serve up the rules. In a hobby where the ratio of prep time to play time is so high, it's essential to make prep time fun. The rulebooks should inspire and entertain, not just provide a reference.

 

[Mistwell]

Where is this idea of "easily memorized" 4E powers coming from?

Nowhere. That's not what we were talking about. We were talking about memorizing the Command spell for 5e. Which IS easier to memorize than the 4e spell Command.

 

[Dausuul]

Nowhere. That's not what we were talking about. We were talking about memorizing the Command spell for 5e. Which IS easier to memorize than the 4e spell Command.

Oh, sorry--my mistake. I should pay more attention when catching up on a thread I haven't read in a while.

 

[Johnny Champion]

The only thing that bothers me is the requirement that the target understand your language. This wasn't an element of the spell in 3E, as I recall (it's not in the SRD version, if it is), and one might think that a command backed by the power of the gods themselves might, y'know, not be deflected by Orc #112 just not speaking Common, neh? Presumably it also has no effect on creatures who cannot understand any language, such as animals and most magical beasts?

This can add some role playing to spell preparation. The cleric, knowing he may be running into some orcs, asks another party member or a townsperson, 3 or 4 words in orcish to use. I can even say a few words in french but not know the language!

 

[pemerton]

The all-text format for spells supports a tight link between the rules and the fiction. The 4E approach encourages keeping the two strictly separate.

I think this is player-dependent.

In my own case, for instance, I don't find that texty formatting particularly links the rules and fiction, if there is no actual clear link. Just to pick on the Command spell, for instance, why does the word "Drop" make the target drop something it is holding, when - at least in English as I speak it - the correct resonse to the one-word command "Drop" would be to fall to the ground. (If you want someone to drop what s/he is holding, you say "Drop it" or "Let it go".)

Conversely, one of the most powerful format-to-fiction abilities I've ever used is the 4e wight's horrific visage: fear keyword, psychic damage, blast (ie one-directional), push. For me, at least, reading this was the most viscerally engaging presentation of undead fear I've encountered - when this thing looks at you your resolve shatters (psychic damage) and you fall back in terror (push) - and it was terrific in play too.