Stat Penalties/Damage?

[frankthedm]

Generally, he was there to beat on the now-pathetically-weak monster until it died, while my Sorcerer kicked back and smoked some pipeweed.

I was reffering to when he got hit with a RoE . Really more of a

 

[kmdietri]

Conversely, are they going to get rid of short term stat buff's that my happen during combat? Because this might also make it important to know what stats a monster's attack rely on...

 

[malraux]

Conversely, are they going to get rid of short term stat buff's that my happen during combat? Because this might also make it important to know what stats a monster's attack rely on...

All the evidence says yes, and the logic remains roughly the same, too much crap to track.

 

[AZRogue]

I absolutely LOVED stat damage ... but hated calculating the effects during a game. Which sucks, IMO, because I still think the idea is awesome. If I ever get a Mentat as a DM helper I'll put them back in a hurry.

 

[MarauderX]

I am a fan of stat damage. Taking away the threat of stat drain is removing a basic core of how a battle can be won. It is one of the reliable means by which to slow down a foe instead of going after HP. I use stat damage as secondary HP in some fights, and the goofy min/maxer that tried to use it too often got it soundly in return. It is a great equalizer when facing off against super-buffed PCs, and recalculating stat loss is pretty easy. In 3.5 once you've dealt with it a few times it becomes easier than level drain.

 

[small pumpkin man]

I am a fan of stat damage. Taking away the threat of stat drain is removing a basic core of how a battle can be won. It is one of the reliable means by which to slow down a foe instead of going after HP. I use stat damage as secondary HP in some fights, and the goofy min/maxer that tried to use it too often got it soundly in return. It is a great equalizer when facing off against super-buffed PCs, and recalculating stat loss is pretty easy. In 3.5 once you've dealt with it a few times it becomes easier than level drain.

It's an "equalizer" because it doesn't scale, and requires no skill or tactics on the part of the DM, exactly the type of thing 4e is removing. And "easier than level drain" is both often untrue and not saying much.

 

[DandD]

What's the point of Hitpoints if everybody's going after stat damages? Also, if you punish players for using that tactic, it just proves that it was really broken from the beginning in the first place.
The very fact that everybody has to start recalculating tons of stats and the game halts to a screeching pause is enough to see that nobody will be missing this mechanic in 4th edition.

 

[MarauderX]

It's an "equalizer" because it doesn't scale, and requires no skill or tactics on the part of the DM, exactly the type of thing 4e is removing. And "easier than level drain" is both often untrue and not saying much.

Correct, it doesn't scale. But it certainly requires tactics.

And how often is it untrue? It either is or isn't in your opinion.

I take it the non-stat damage games don't make much use of poison, disease or spells like enfeeblement in their games.

What's the point of Hitpoints if everybody's going after stat damages? Also, if you punish players for using that tactic, it just proves that it was really broken from the beginning in the first place.

It is not easy to go after large chunks of stat damage, which is why you don't see the monster manuals riddled with creatures that have debilitating poison - at the deadliest they are doing d10. It is not punishing the player for using it, and stat damage is hardly broken. You can change tactics mid-battle to compensate for the damage type and clerics can heal stats just like HP.

The very fact that everybody has to start recalculating tons of stats and the game halts to a screeching pause is enough to see that nobody will be missing this mechanic in 4th edition.

So you don't use any of the buff spells that relate to stats either? How about Greater Heroism or Bard Songs, are those too complex and time consuming as well? Its not tons of stats; it is one stat at a time, and everyone is pretty comfortable with each relation. I like to run a fast moving game, and I like to use many different methods to try to defeat a party. I will miss 6 good ways to keep the players guessing.

 

[Steely Dan]

If I ever get a Mentat as a DM helper I'll put them back in a hurry.

That is an awesome idea – 'Master DM Assistant (Piter), get over here!'

 

[small pumpkin man]

Correct, it doesn't scale. But it certainly requires tactics.

Swarming Wyverns or worse Shadows against PCs who con take down most creatures of that CR incredibly easy takes no tactics, and both are relative resistanct to normal attempts to contain them, often actively discouraging true tactical play. Using dex damaging abilities against dragons takes no tactics, it can require preparation and forethought, but once you're in combat there's no tactics involved. It's strategic in a way that tends to be interesting to Robin Laws style "tactitions" but it's not tactical.

Also the fact that ability damage goes up while stats often remain the same, as well as the fact that many things which do it give no save(including many undead), or have stupidly high saves (collosal vermin) means that at high levels the only effective way to counter them is to just be immune, completely bypassing tactics, something which personifies many of the annoying problems with high level 3.x play.

And how often is it untrue? It either is or isn't in your opinion.

Obviously if it's chr damage on a Fighter it takes less, however if it's str damage, or primary caster stat damage it tends to take longer because you're often figuring out things like damage on two handed weapons or what spells you've lost.

I take it the non-stat damage games don't make much use of poison, disease or spells like enfeeblement in their games.

Enfeeblement is overly good, it's one of the perfect examples of an ability that reduces fun and discourages true tactics,using it one a fighter or barbarian it hidiously debuffs them often rendering them completely inefective, and there's nothing fighters or anybody can do about it untill much later on (when it's still very good). Disease is usually fine, since you're generally not redoing your stats in the middle of combat, and as something that's essentially a plot things (and very easy to deal with) it's not a big deal. Poison honestly only starts having problems around level 9-10, and it doesn't become obvious untill later. It's part of the whole sweet spot thing.

It is not easy to go after large chunks of stat damage, which is why you don't see the monster manuals riddled with creatures that have debilitating poison - at the deadliest they are doing d10. It is not punishing the player for using it, and stat damage is hardly broken. You can change tactics mid-battle to compensate for the damage type and clerics can heal stats just like HP.

Firstly, I didn't write that, what you've attributed to me here was DandD, secondly, Wyverns are only CR 6 and do 2d6 con, Collosul Monstrous Spiders are CR 11 and do 2d8 str. Other examples exist, although 2d8 is probably the highest in the MM1.

So you don't use any of the buff spells that relate to stats either? How about Greater Heroism or Bard Songs, are those too complex and time consuming as well? Its not tons of stats; it is one stat at a time, and everyone is pretty comfortable with each relation. I like to run a fast moving game, and I like to use many different methods to try to defeat a party. I will miss 6 good ways to keep the players guessing.

I didn't write that either, but I will point out that most of those things used by GMs to "keep players on their toes" tend to be things that are incredibly difficult to regularly deal with except by having an absurd amount of Cleric/Wizard buffs up all day, which is exactly the kind of thing you and similar GMs seem to complain about.