Stats scaling past 18/19

My game is about fun, but I actually think that characters can be useful outside of extremely narrow "specializations," which means there's every reason for me to argue that fighters are better than "okay" and that casters aren't N degrees better than fighters. You're the one saying otherwise.

- Being useful and having fun are often two different things. In core, Bards and Fighters are fun, doesn't make them useful.

Again, easily disproven. A character with a trip weapon still deals its damage, and taking Improved Trip is hardly depriving the character of damage-output-focused feats to the point that his damage is negligible.
- Damage dealing feats are late-chain feats. Removing their reach weapon and reducing their ability to trip prevents them from dealing significant damage, that is if you actually manage to get near enough to trip anything in the first place.

On the other hand, your fighter can last for longer than 5 rounds, and will likely have a better AC than 15, and more than 22 hit points. Matching their damage output is easy, and you can grapple almost as good with the Improved Grapple feat. So no, your fighters aren't made useless by one summons. See my previous post for further reasons why this is so.
What combat doesn't end in under five rounds? Also, I said -replaced-, not -useless-. They're unnecessary, because they've been replaced by a spell.

You're again confusing not hyper-optimizing with "uselessness." There's a difference.
In that quote, I said "effective". You don't need to hyper-optimize a caster to make it oodles more useful than a Fighter, but you do need to optimize a Fighter to hold his weight in a group after about level 6.

You seemed to have missed my previous post about all the different ways to avoid that spell to begin with, let alone its tiny area of effect (the idea that someone would just stand still in the 10-foot square and let the ranged attackers pick them off is an amusing one, though).
If you can't make the Balance check, you can't move inside of a Grease spell. If you fail your check by 5 or more, you fall prone. With their heavy armor, few skill points, and Balance not on their class list anyway, they'll have a very difficult time making that check.

Or they can just do any one of a number of things, like draw another weapon (a free action while they move up and sunder your wand).
Assuming they can even make it to the caster.

Actually, it's more accurate to state that, if my casters haven't effective ended a combat with a well-placed level 1-3 spell, even up to CR 10, then they're playing the game as it was intended to be played, rather than trying to bend the system as far as they can to "win" every encounter. Which wouldn't really matter anyway since, as I've already explained, that will happen only as long as the GM lets it happen.
There isn't any bending involved. Playing strictly by the book is all that is necessary.


These are, in fact, virtually all theoretical scenarios - answers that then have questions created to fit them - and the fact that some people actually let that shape how they play their game isn't surprising (see the last link I posted for more about that; that line of thinking has been around a long time). But again, that lasts only as long as the GM keeps things within those carefully constructed scenarios; they're otherwise very easy to break ("a FIFTH encounter in one day?! OH NOOOOSSS!").
Casters are more able to deal with surprise scenarios than Fighters, too. A Fighter who loses 80% of his resources is down to 20% HP and almost out of consumables. A caster teleports home and rests for a night in his safe, warm bed.

Until they can't use their spells (e.g. anti-magic field, silence, etc.) any longer, or any of a hundred other ways to break that paradigm wide open.
Casters generally have great Will saves, making Silence ineffective in targeting them.
Also, I like that you're trying to counter casters with casters, because that is the only effective way to do it.
 

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Sekhmet, it seems to me
The effort that I see
Which went into composing
Whilst I was reposing
That Homeric repartee
Of unparalleled verbosity
If put into character generation
At this particular junction
Would surely result in a melee
Fighter of unmatched pedigree
A daring, skilled swordsman
Who would teach me a lesson
 
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I have made my own 6th level fighter so that we may explore this issue on a more factual basis. Here is Corbin Houston. He is a Spiked Chain using fighter with about 300 GP left to spend on miscellaneous gear, like a sword, bag of caltrops, or what have you.

I believe we are all familiar with the 6th level wizard I linked to earlier, Tamas?
 

Dandu, I do appreciate the effort you are going to here with rolling up characters to attempt to prove that the fighter is a waste of time in some sort of one on one contest that you think will therefore prove your point. However, you are actually proving a different point when you do this, one that isn't being made against you - nobody said that the wizard is not powerful.

What was said is that it is a myth that the fighter is a poor choice at high levels. No amount of rolling up wizards is going to prove that right or wrong. It's the fighter that is in question in this myth, not a mage.

Everybody knows that the mage is powerful at high levels. What everybody seems to forget is that the fighter is, too. All this talk about teleporting back home to rest is entirely situational. Is his home in range? Is his home actually safe? All this talk about listing a number of spells to protect a mage assumes the mage is a high enough level to cast them - and he may blow them all in one encounter anyway. All this is distraction away from the main point: a high level fighter IS very powerful, he never tires, he always fights at peak performance, his multiple attacks with a +5 weapon, high strength and combat feats make him extremely useful in any party. Just remember, the mage is vulnerable when he's out of spells, in antimagic zones, when silenced, or even just when the enemy makes a saving throw (against the odds) at a critical moment.
 

What was said is that it is a myth that the fighter is a poor choice at high levels. No amount of rolling up wizards is going to prove that right or wrong. It's the fighter that is in question in this myth, not a mage.
Then here is a level 12 fighter. What fearsome challenges shall he have to face, and how well does he fare in them and contribute to his party?

All this talk about teleporting back home to rest is entirely situational. Is his home in range?
Teleport has a range of thousands of miles. Now, time constraints may prevent resting to regain spells... but tell me, how is a fighter regaining his hit points if he has no time to rest, barring shenanagans like Persisted Mass Vigor (a spell) or certain feat combinations? Furthermore, what good is he going to do by himself once the party spellcasters have run dry?
Is his home actually safe?
Rope Trick, a level 2 spell, creates a personal extradimensional hiding space. That's pretty safe. Higher level spells like Magnificent Mansion are more stylish.
All this talk about listing a number of spells to protect a mage assumes the mage is a high enough level to cast them - and he may blow them all in one encounter anyway.
Or, you know, he might not. Restrainet and resource management can work wonders.
All this is distraction away from the main point: a high level fighter IS very powerful, he never tires
Fighters are not immune to fatigue, exhaustion, sleep deprivation, or hunger as class features last time I checked.
he always fights at peak performance,
Unless suffering from one of the aforementioned status effects, or when out of hit points.
his multiple attacks with a +5 weapon, high strength and combat feats make him extremely useful in any party.
Produce for me the ocular proof.

Show me how he makes himself extremely useful. Make a fighter (or use mine) and pull out some monsters for him to fight. Let's see how many attacks he gets, and at what attack bonus are they? Are they high enough that he can can justify his place numerically. We could start with an 11 headed Cryohydra, or a Greater Abyssal Baslisk, or a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion, or a Purple Worm, or a Frost Worm, or maybe a Brass Dragon.
 
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Dandu, I suspect that this issue will never be resolved as everybody is talking past each other and effectively ignoring the points being made. This is classic fear of being wrong playing out.

It strikes me that nobody is about to change their minds, so probably a 12th level fighter with no ranged weapons is going to really make any difference anyway. I am sorry if in rolling these characters up you have been wasting your time, but there does come a point in any discussion when if two points of view which shouldn't be at odds with each other* are nonetheless directed that way and nobody shifts position, that the discussion should probably close.

*Mages are powerful, Fighters are powerful, there is no mutual exclusion here.
 

Ok, look.

There is no ranged weapon on that sheet because owning multiple magical weapons is really expensive especially when you have to have lots of other magical gear. And low Dex and no archery feats means you'll suck at it anyways. Dex 12 isn't enough for most archery feats. Dex 14 isn't enough for the more advanced archery feats. Archery is more of a Ranger thing. However if you think I'm doing it wrong, feel free to recommend different items or a different build.

What I am trying to do is pin down your numbers and figure out why you think the way you do. Conceptually, you have the fighter right; he is a big strong guy who hits stuff a lot for a lot of damage. However, numerically, if you look at the opponents he fights, he is not big or strong enough. His numbers do not scale correctly - at least in my experience.

Sure, you can take out a village of commoners when you're level 18 and have a Strength score of 28, but that's not terribly impressive to a Balor who is stronger, faster, and tougher, with spells that can stunlock you to death. Or a Dragon which laughs when you swing at it and bites your head off. A Figther is hitting people with a sharp stick in a battlefield that has since evolved past men standing around trading blows to include phase shifting, force fields, and warping the fabric of reality.

In short, Mages are powerful, Fighters are powerful, Monsters are powerful. However, they really are not at the same level of power. At all.
 
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[MENTION=85123]kingius[/MENTION] Dandu has a ton of these character sheets on hand, having rolled them up previously and kept them around.
He (and I) have addressed the points brought up in the "Fighters are people, too" defense, and he's gone so far as to provide [MENTION=98256]kitcik[/MENTION] with character sheets to use against each other (since he specifically asked for them).

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] I like the Cryohydra idea. A shock trooper/leap attack Fighter would probably have the best chance, and then it'll come down to "who hits first". 11 heads at +16 to hit and +25 grapple very easily takes out an ECL10 Fighter (not to mention breath weapons), but if the Fighter manages to live, you can bet he'll take out the Hydra's body in a round.

[sblock]It's another clear case of "Shivering Touch BBEG to win", though. [/sblock]
 

ECL 12 fighter - I'd give it even odds assuming you can get a charge off. Unfortunately, the natural environment of a hydra is a swamp, which is not good for charging. So it's going to be some kind of slugfest.

Archery won't work unless you have a DPS of more than 21 points per round.

Of course, the simple solution would be to cast Magic Jar/Dominate Monster/Hold Monster/you get the point and have your possessed hydra body kill itself/order it to do something suicidal/have someone coup de grace it/whatever.
 

Not to labour the point, but this is why fighters carry ranged weapons. Disrupting spells being cast (for example) is a very fine use of multiple attack per round bow. Not to be too condescending - so please correct me if you feel I'm being this way - but I really doubt that any of you have played a solo fighter at high level to understand how to use him effectively. When you talk about fighters, I have in my mind that you are picturing the Barbarian, rather than the multi purpose fighter who at high level has likely got a +5 sword and a +4 bow with +5 arrows in his backpack (or an assortment of munitions) to quick strike at a distance at foes that can threaten him before he can shut down their abilities. If he's solo, you may do what I do when I play a fighter - get a good ranged attack and excellent melee capability. If you fancy a challenge, try it some time. Most fighters have a good DEX score, remember, because platemail is not available at low levels due to cost... so he's going to need it. Maybe, just maybe, you'll shift your position a little, but I do doubt it.
 

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