Stealth 4 Dummies

[nittanytbone]

Here's my current thoughts on Stealth, compiling all the relavent bits from the PHB and errata as of today. I definitely don't have it all but I think I may have identified some of the big questions out there!


STEALTH PER ERRATA

quote:Stealth: At the end of a move action.

Ok, so you can make a stealth check after moving or any other move action. I don't see why you couldn't even stay in place and expend a move action to make a stealth check (although it is "inefficient" in the economy of actions).

quote:✦ Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is –10.

Ok, straightforward. Except, do you have to beat all enemy's passive perception (i.e., you have to beat the best foe's check and then hide from all?)? Or can you beat some foes but not others?

The first situation is simpler but heavily favors groups with one Perception Monkey "radar." The second situation is more complicated as you may be hidden against some foes but not others but rewards individuals with good perception.

quote:✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.
✦ Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Concealment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page 281).
✦ Failure: You can try again at the end of another move action.

Ok, I am mentally adding a new state to page 277, "Hidden." In order to become hidden, you need total cover/total concealment or a distraction (out of combat).

quote:✦ Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new
Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.

Ok, so once you are "Hidden," you can remain so if you follow the rules above. Interestingly, you need only regular cover or concealment (not from an ally) to remain Hidden. So you can start out behind a corner to hide, then duck out into, say a lightly obsured fog cloud or behind a hedge providing regular cover. Everything else is pretty straightforward.

So here's an example:
1) Start behind a corner (total cover). Spend a move action, make a Stealth check to become Hidden.
2) Deft Strike out from behind the corner. You'll need regular cover or concealment to maintain your Hidden state.
3) Make an attack as part of Deft Strike. This removes the Hidden state. No second stealth check is needed as Stealth checks are made at the end of actions, but the Deft Strike attack blows your cover anyways before the end of the action.

quote:✦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

This is just more support for the deft strike scenario above -- additional stealth checks (if needed) are made at the end of actions.

quote:✦ Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your space, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.

Per the perception skill check, using Perception actively is a Standard Action, except... Wait for it...


Targeting What You Can’t See [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 281

quote:Replace the “Invisible Creature Uses Stealth” and “Make a Perception Check” paragraphs with the following:

Note that this leaves "Pick a Square and Attack" and "Close or Area Attacks" untouched. Those are straightforward, though.

quote:Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.

Ok, the first sentence just reiterates the definition of our "Hidden" state. If you are not hidden, then you may be invisible, but foes know what square you're in.

quote:Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186) to try to determine the location of an invisible creature that is hidden from you.

If a creature is INVISIBLE (one of our states on page 277), it is only a minor action to determine what square it is in. One can make three arguments from here.

1) A Hidden creature is invisible (and silent), by definition. Thus, an opponent can use a minor action to try and pin down what square the creature is in. This does not necessarily negate the Hidden state, allow attacks without a penalty, or negate the hidden creature's CA.
2) A Hidden creature is invisible by definition. But one could argue that the minor action perception check falls under the "Enemy Activity" clause described under stealth, thus a minor action perception check blows the hidden creature's cover and it loses the Hidden state. This raises the question -- if one monster locates a hidden creature, does it remain hidden for everyone else?
3) A Hidden creature is invisible AND silent. Thus it does not fall under this category at all, and a minor action check can't be used.

I think explanation 1 is the most plausible. I don't want to make percpetion too potent otherwise people try to roll every round. Plus, the defender already gets a free check in the form of their Passive Perception. That would give the defender choices too:

Minor Action Check: Know hidden creature's square; can attack at -5 (better tha n wasting a round in the wrong square!), move into the hidden creature's square (automatically reveals it), or use a blast/area attack.
Standard Action Check: Reveal hidden creature; removes Hidden state, all benefits of above, no longer grant CA.

Clear as mud?

Ok, now throw in the rogue powers.

Fleeting Ghost (U2) is easy. No need to hash it over.

quote:Chameleon Rogue Utility 6
You blend into your surroundings.
At-Will ? Martial
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an opponent
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: Make a Stealth check. Until the end of your next turn, you remain hidden if a creature that has a clear line of sight to you does not beat your check
result with its Perception check. If at the end of your turn you do not have over or concealment against a creature, that creature automatically notices you.

First, its an Immediate Interrupt. So you can only use it once per turn (although you can use it on your turn -- nothing in the Immediate action section says it has to be on someone else's turn! See PHB 268). The trigger is pretty straightforward -- you need at least regular cover or concealment to retain your Hidden status.

With the effect, you remain hidden if you succeed at a Stealth check. If you want to remain hidden you have to go seek out cover or concealment.

Ok, so say you're hiding behind a bush or something. An orc walks around the corner. With your immediate interrupt, you remain hidden with a succesful check. A second orc walks around the corner -- do you stay hidden vs. this new one? Or because you can only make one immediate action per round, are you hosed? Or is the Hidden status like a state (hidden vs. all at once)?

quote:Shadow Stride Rogue Utility 10
You silently step from shadow to shadow, slipping past your foes unseen and unheard.
At-Will ? Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.

Ok, this one is an at-will. Basically it lets you move across open spaces without being seen. So, above, in our base stealth rules, we determined that checks are made at the end of actions, but this power implies that without Shadow Stride, a character who darts into the open would at least be spotted.

Also note that this lets you move without the -5 penalty up to your speed, making Fleeting Ghost somewhat obsolete.



Oy vey. Well, I'm a bit clearer, but its still a bit of a mess! What do you all think?

 

[Vegepygmy]

If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check.

Ok, straightforward. Except, do you have to beat all enemy's passive perception (i.e., you have to beat the best foe's check and then hide from all?)? Or can you beat some foes but not others?

It says "each," not "all." You can be hidden from one enemy and not another.

2) Deft Strike out from behind the corner. You'll need regular cover or concealment to maintain your Hidden state.

No. Deft Strike is a standard action that allows you to move 2 squares and attack. You retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve that action, even if you move to a place where you have no cover or concealment. After you resolve your action, you're no longer hidden (regardless of where you moved, because you attacked).

 

[Vegepygmy]

Effect: Make a Stealth check. Until the end of your next turn, you remain hidden if a creature that has a clear line of sight to you does not beat your check
result with its Perception check. If at the end of your turn you do not have over or concealment against a creature, that creature automatically notices you.

Ok, so say you're hiding behind a bush or something. An orc walks around the corner. With your immediate interrupt, you remain hidden with a succesful check. A second orc walks around the corner -- do you stay hidden vs. this new one? Or because you can only make one immediate action per round, are you hosed? Or is the Hidden status like a state (hidden vs. all at once)?

You stay hidden (if your Stealth check result beat the second orc's passive Perception), because the Effect of Fleeting Ghost says that until the end of your next turn, you remain hidden if a creature...does not beat your check result. The second orc is "a creature," and it isn't the end of your next turn yet.

 

[Smeelbo]

This has been very useful to me, and the first third pretty much summarizes what I had deduced from careful reading, but...

First, its an Immediate Interrupt. So you can only use it once per turn (although you can use it on your turn -- nothing in the Immediate action section says it has to be on someone else's turn! See PHB 268).

On page 268 of the PHB, it clearly states:
"You can't take an immediate action on your turn."
So you can do it if you lose cover on an enemy's turn, but not your own turn. As I understand it, keeping concealment despite exposure on your own turn requires Shadow Stride (PHB122).

Also, my reading has not stumbled across a rule that says that you remain hidden until after the action that exposes you has been resolved. Where can I find that reference? It makes sense, otherwise how could you attack with combat advantage because you are hidden if attacking automaticly exposes you? But where is the reference? If true, a hidden ranger could use Twin Strike to fire twice with Combat Advantage, since they remain hidden until the end of the action that exposes them, not the end of the attack that exposes them.

Thank you for this thread.

Smeelbo

 

[Kordeth]

Also, my reading has not stumbled across a rule that says that you remain hidden until after the action that exposes you has been resolved. Where can I find that reference? It makes sense, otherwise how could you attack with combat advantage because you are hidden if attacking automaticly exposes you? But where is the reference? If true, a hidden ranger could use Twin Strike to fire twice with Combat Advantage, since they remain hidden until the end of the action that exposes them, not the end of the attack that exposes them.

Thank you for this thread.

Smeelbo

Per the Stealth rules update:

Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

 

[nittanytbone]

Thanks for picking up the little errors! I found the stealth rules to be quite confusing, given that they are spread across multiple pages (plus errata).

 

[Smeelbo]

Found the PHB errata on Stealth, thank you. However, I find the phrase "some degree of cover or concealment" more than a bit ambiguous. Will dim light suffice against an opponent without low light vision? It seems obvious that any power that provides concealment should suffice, but is that really so? Is the cover provided by a dungeon corner sufficient?

So you make a single stealth check when you become hidden, and continue to use that roll until you are no longer hidden, yes? Even when exploring, as long as you only move 4 squares per round (double move)?

Since you benefit from stealth until the end of the action that breaks stealth, a hidden character could charge and have combat advantage for that attack?

Since you can be hidden from one opponent, but not another, and speaking a few words is a free action, could one opponent warn the other by pointing and crying out, "Dude!"? If, for example, one opponent has low light vision, could he warn his normal visioned ally?

I think there may be a little more to say about Stealth.

Smeelbo

 

[Vegepygmy]

Found the PHB errata on Stealth, thank you. However, I find the phrase "some degree of cover or concealment" more than a bit ambiguous. Will dim light suffice against an opponent without low light vision? It seems obvious that any power that provides concealment should suffice, but is that really so? Is the cover provided by a dungeon corner sufficient?

Yes, yes, and yes.

PHB, page 262: "Characters who have normal vision can’t see well in dim light: Creatures in the area have concealment (page 281)."​

PHB, page 280: "To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover."​

That's all there is to it. You apply the rules to determine whether the target has cover or concealment, and if it does, it can remain hidden there.

So you make a single stealth check when you become hidden, and continue to use that roll until you are no longer hidden, yes? Even when exploring, as long as you only move 4 squares per round (double move)?

As long as you have some degree of cover or concealment, that's correct.

Since you benefit from stealth until the end of the action that breaks stealth, a hidden character could charge and have combat advantage for that attack?

Correct.

Since you can be hidden from one opponent, but not another, and speaking a few words is a free action, could one opponent warn the other by pointing and crying out, "Dude!"? If, for example, one opponent has low light vision, could he warn his normal visioned ally?

Yes, but just warning someone doesn't mean they perceive the hidden opponent. It may prompt them to attempt an active Perception check to reveal the hidden opponent, though.

I think there may be a little more to say about Stealth.

For example?

 

[Smeelbo]

I don't agree that "some degree of cover or concealment" is unambiguous. In the Errata, they state that you can't use creatures for cover for stealth, so there is at least one example of cover that does not provide stealth. True, enemy creatures only provide cover against ranged attacks, but then why the qualifier "some degree?" What about a low wall, that provides cover. Would it allow a character to remain hidden if they are not prone? Under what other circumstances is cover or concealment insufficient to remain hidden?

For some characters, stealth is very important. Since one of the major design goals for 4E is minimizing ambiguity in combat, that means "some degree" does not cut it. If it is as easy as asking "Do they have cover," or even "non-creature cover," then why qualify it at all?

I agree that for most purposes, the Errata'd Stealth rules seem sufficient, but I have not played a lot, and haven't DMed 4E at all yet.

Smeelbo

 

[Vegepygmy]

True, enemy creatures only provide cover against ranged attacks, but then why the qualifier "some degree?"

Because there are different degrees of cover and concealment. There are cover, superior cover, concealment, total concealment, and invisibility (unless you consider that just a subpart of total concealment).

What about a low wall, that provides cover. Would it allow a character to remain hidden if they are not prone?

Of course.

Under what other circumstances is cover or concealment insufficient to remain hidden?

None...unless there is an explicit exception, such as "You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden."

For some characters, stealth is very important. Since one of the major design goals for 4E is minimizing ambiguity in combat, that means "some degree" does not cut it.

I disagree. There are two degrees of cover defined by the rules: normal and superior. There are at least two degrees of concealment: normal and total. And there is always the possibility that they are going to define other degrees of cover or concealment at some point in a future publication. "Some degree of cover or concealment" is a plain, simple phrase that articulately communicates the intent of the rule...but no matter how clear and concise the rule, there will always be someone who can still find it ambiguous, I guess.