Stealth 4 Dummies

[Black Knight Irios]

I agree on the scenario Rughat provided. But a thought crossed my mind. It's about the following:

You remain hidden until the action that breaks stealth is completed.

The movement of Deft Strike is part of the same action, therefore you have CA for the attack. (Normal reasoning applied.)

BUT we learned that movement consists of as many "mini actions" as squares are moved. Ready vs. Charge scenario.

Therefore Deft Strike would be 1 to 3 actions (0, 1, or 2 for the movement and 1 for the attack):

And if you lose cover/concealment during any of those mini move actions you would lose your hidden condition before the attack -- therefore, attacking w/o CA.

I think that's reasonable because that's how movement is broken down into mini move actions. I haven't send this to CS but it would be a hard lowblow for all stealth users.

 

[Tarrl]

So does the Chameleon power only affect one monster as stated?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

So does the Chameleon power only affect one monster as stated?

My statement has nothing to do with the Chameleon power but I say it once more, the Chameleon power works against the triggering enemy and all other enemies during its duration.

 

[Smeelbo]

Deft Strike, Charge are ACTIONS, "mini-actions" irrelevent to Stealth

Charge is an action.
Deft Strike is an action.
Stealth holds until the end of an action.

The whole "mini-action" thing appears nowhere in the rules, but is an artifact arising from interpreting the rules regarding immediate actions:

If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving...you take your action before the creature finishes moving.

Counting moving individual squares as "actions" for purposes of Stealth is not supported by the rules, and would gut Stealth.

Never confuse useful notions for interpretting rules for the actual rules themselves.

Smeelbo

 

[Black Knight Irios]

So you say that "mini move actions" are only used in the context of immediate actions? And are therefore not a real part of the game, and are a specific rule in that context which trumps a general rule - but only for immediate actions?
-- Then my thesis on stealth is wrong.

 

[Oompa]

Well simply said:

Deft Strike is one action..

Otherwise, storm of blades (fighter attack 13) would consist of 6 actions..

Those mini actions don't exist..

 

[Smeelbo]

So you say that "mini move actions" are only used in the context of immediate actions?

Where are these "mini-actions?" Nowhere in the PHB, or the DMG. So far as I can tell, they are used in forums by various posters to explain how immediate actions work, but are not in the rules themselves.

Unless you can show me in the rules where "mini-actions" are defined, your thesis on Stealth is not supported by the rules as written.

Smeelbo

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Now I believe that Fleeting Ghost allows an At-Will Move Action that is an exception to Keeping Still, and unlike Secret Stride, does not apply to movement using any other actions, such as shifts, or attack actions that include moves.

If it were an exception to Keeping Stiil which is part of remaining hidden, it would require you to be hidden to use it, as the other powers which relate to Keep Out of Sight (chameleon) and Keep Still (fleeting ghost) do. It is the power you use to hide. It negates the -5 penalty to hide if you moved more than 5 squares and may or may not, pending an update or FAQ answer, create an exception allowing you to hide without meeting the normal requirements for superior cover and/or total concealment.

OK, so either you need NO concealment because the text does not mention any requirement to be concealed to make the Stealth check allowed by Fleeting Ghost, OR it is assumed that the normal stealth rules still apply, with the explicit exception of the movement penalties, in which case total concealment is required (or one of the other conditions which allows a stealth check normally).

If the power functions as written, meaning you make a Stealth check as part of the power, you make a Stealth check to hide. You remain hidden if you have cover or concealment.

Right. You have to make a new stealth roll if you move more than 2 squares.

Fleeting Ghost allows you to avoid the 'moved more than 2 squares' penalty to this check. That's all it does. You still have to roll a new stealth check, but you are a lot more likely to remain hidden.

There is a difference between "You can move your speed and make a Stealth check." and "If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty." The Fleeting Ghost negation of the penalty for moving more than two squares only applies to the first case as written in the description: "You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check."

It allows you to avoid the -5 penalty for moving more than 2 squares when making a check to hide as part of the Fleeting Ghost power. Fleeting Ghost as written specifically limits the check to the check made with the power.

Shadow Stride then allows you to cross an area lacking cover by making a stealth check, letting you flit from one area of cover to another without being revealed.

And avoid the -5 penalty for moving more than five squares while doing so.

I guess I am not sure where this assertion comes from. The Stealth rules specifically state that you need total concealment or superior cover in order to hide (use Stealth). There does not appear to be a rule about "enemies which are not alert".

Out of combat, it is the DMs determination whether a creature is distracted. In combat, creatures are assumed to be paying attention in all directions. It is written more verbosely in the updated stealth skill.

 

[Smeelbo]

If it were an exception to Keeping Stiil which is part of remaining hidden, it would require you to be hidden to use it, as the other powers which relate to Keep Out of Sight (chameleon) and Keep Still (fleeting ghost) do. It is the power you use to hide. It negates the -5 penalty to hide if you moved more than 5 squares and may or may not, pending an update or FAQ answer, create an exception allowing you to hide without meeting the normal requirements for superior cover and/or total concealment.

I'm sorry, I am having a little trouble understanding you here. Are you saying that Fleeting Ghost allows you to move and become hidden without the penalty for moving more than two squares? Are you saying that Fleeting Ghost cannot be used to move and remain hidden when you are already hidden?

If [Fleeting Ghost] functions as written, meaning you make a Stealth check as part of the power, you make a Stealth check to hide. You remain hidden if you have cover or concealment.

You are arguing here that Fleeting Ghost, as written, is an exception to Becoming Hidden, and obviates the need for Total Concealment or Superior Cover, as well as negating the movement penalty. Yes?

I am sorry for being dense here.

The reason that I am so concerned about the precise rules for Stealth is that my favorite character types have been "scouts," essentially ranger/rogues, and since I started playing, the rules on stealth have steadily evolved until with 4E, we appear to have unambiguous rules about exactly under what circumstances you are hidden. I consider this a huge step forward, but I want to have a solid grasp of the Stealth mechanics.

If all that Fleeting Ghost does is allow one to make a move action to become hidden without penalty for speed, and does not allow you to use that move action to remain hidden, then I am much better off ignoring that utility and instead taking the feat Skill Focus: Stealth at 2nd level.

Smeelbo

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

I'm sorry, I am having a little trouble understanding you here. Are you saying that Fleeting Ghost allows you to move and become hidden without the penalty for moving more than two squares?

Yes.

Are you saying that Fleeting Ghost cannot be used to move and remain hidden when you are already hidden?

Yes. Going strictly by the wording of the power and the wording of Keeping Still, Fleeting Ghost would only apply when hiding. You could be hidden and use Fleeting Ghost. It results in a roll to remain hidden (-5 for moving more than 2 squares) and another roll to hide (no penalty for moving up to your speed). So you could, move unnoticed at -5 and hide with a more difficult to beat stealth roll, or be noticed on your path due to a bad roll then hide successfully at your destination, or move the distance hidden, then give yourself away trying to hide a little better at your destination.

You are arguing here that Fleeting Ghost, as written, is an exception to Becoming Hidden, and obviates the need for Total Concealment or Superior Cover, as well as negating the movement penalty. Yes?

I'm stating that based upon the rules as written and the responses from WotC, that it definitely obviates the penalty for movement when hiding and may create an exception to the need for superior cover/total concealment to become hidden.

I am sorry for being dense here.

It isn't being dense, just looking for an answer and the answer is, there is no answer, which is frustrating.

The reason that I am so concerned about the precise rules for Stealth is that my favorite character types have been "scouts," essentially ranger/rogues, and since I started playing, the rules on stealth have steadily evolved until with 4E, we appear to have unambiguous rules about exactly under what circumstances you are hidden. I consider this a huge step forward, but I want to have a solid grasp of the Stealth mechanics.

Welcome to my world. I've been playing primarily thief/assasin/rogue characters for over a quarter century. I'd spend a lot less time discussing Stealth on this forum if it weren't for the characters I like to play (and that as a DM, I like the characters moving around the map rather than clumping in a corner, and stealth facilitates that). The unfortunate problem is that in regard to Fleeting Ghost the unambiguous answer is that there isn't an official answer, so DM call.

If all that Fleeting Ghost does is allow one to make a move action to become hidden without penalty for speed, and does not allow you to use that move action to remain hidden, then I am much better off ignoring that utility and instead taking the feat Skill Focus: Stealth at 2nd level.

Yep, as written, if it doesn't effectively create an exception allowing you to hide in cover/concealment, it doesn't do a whole lot.