Stealth in Combat

[NMcCoy]

Readying doesn't interrupt anymore - you get hit by the Sneak Attack and then get to counterattack.

Also, keep in mind that unless you move (which carries a penalty to Stealth if it's more than two squares) they know what square you're in and can attack it at a -5 penalty (or no penalty at all if it's a Close or Area attack).

 

[Surgoshan]

Scenario 1
You watch as I run into a stand of trees and brush, 20'x20'. You know where I am, generally, but can no longer see me. You fire off an arrow and, by chance, hit me.

In this case, I made a stealth roll, you failed to beat it. You then attacked at -5 and hit.

Scenario B
I jump over a low stone wall and duck down, you keep a sharp eye through cracks and holes in the wall and spot me. You then arc an arrow up and over, and hit me.

Your opposed perception check beat my stealth roll, you knew where I was, you nailed me at -2.

Scenario Two and a Half
Invisible Jim run across the battlefield. Thog rolls his eyes and cuts Jim's head off.

Jim moved more than two squares, took a penalty to his stealth roll, Thog pinpointed him and nailed a critical hit.

 

[Xorn]

Scenario 1
You watch as I run into a stand of trees and brush, 20'x20'. You know where I am, generally, but can no longer see me. You fire off an arrow and, by chance, hit me.

In this case, I made a stealth roll, you failed to beat it. You then attacked at -5 and hit.

If you ran very deep into the trees and brush, it's total concealment, so yes, you're hidden and I can't see you. I can't see you, but I have line of effect still. I guess a square (the stealth vs perception determines if I get clues to my guess) and I attack with -5 to hit.

Scenario B
I jump over a low stone wall and duck down, you keep a sharp eye through cracks and holes in the wall and spot me. You then arc an arrow up and over, and hit me.

Your opposed perception check beat my stealth roll, you knew where I was, you nailed me at -2.

You only jumped behind cover. No stealth check involved as you can't avoid notice--I've already noticed you. I shoot through a hole in the cover, -2 to hit.

Scenario Two and a Half
Invisible Jim run across the battlefield. Thog rolls his eyes and cuts Jim's head off.

Jim moved more than two squares, took a penalty to his stealth roll, Thog pinpointed him and nailed a critical hit.

Invisible Jim did not use (or failed at) his Bluff check, and was unable to use Stealth to become hidden via a distraction. An undistracted Thog is very dangerous.

Every time someone says stealth makes you hidden when you weren't hidden before is adding words to the book. Read "Success" under stealth. It's very clear language, I can't believe I didn't notice it beforehand.

 

[Oni]

Is sneak attack OP with the rules as written? Would changing them noticably reduce the power of the rogue class?

I don't know the answers to these questions, as I haven't seen the books yet, but I gather that rogues as strikers are entirely dependent on their sneak attack to do any kind of signficant damage.

 

[Vaeron]

This is what passive perception for. It's essentially taking ten. That's the average of what the person would get if they rolled 100 perception checks or so. Ex: my 1st level rogue has a passive perception of 17. If he rolled a d20 and added his perception modifier, on average he would get a 17.

The whole point of passive perception is to use that instead of having to roll all the time. You're making things a lot harder than they need to be.

 

[Tsuul]

Readying doesn't interrupt anymore - you get hit by the Sneak Attack and then get to counterattack.

And if the ready action is for "the rogue popping out from behind the wall" instead of "getting attacked by the hidden guy"? He is, after all, in plain sight when he makes the attack.

 

[NMcCoy]

It's one action - attacking is what unhides you. The only exemption for readying for part of an action is movement.

 

[BlackTiger]

One minor point - Is giving the Rogue those damage dice for sneak attack often a problem?

Look at the other striker, the Ranger. Compare them to a Rogue, and you'll see that they don't *need* combat advantage to dish out crazy damage. be the closest guy to your enemy, and you have an at-will that can deal 2d10 + 1d6 damage from looong range. A rogue is limited to what, D6 weapons because of light blades. So, Sly Flourish + sneak is 3d6 + dex + cha (Although that can be as high as 7, granted.)

I played a game with 2 rangers, 2 wizards, and a paladin. Man, I wanted the rogue back. Sure, they have to make some skill checks, but making it easy to get combat advantage isn't a bad thing altogether for a striker.

 

[Saeviomagy]

One minor point - Is giving the Rogue those damage dice for sneak attack often a problem?

Look at the other striker, the Ranger. Compare them to a Rogue, and you'll see that they don't *need* combat advantage to dish out crazy damage. be the closest guy to your enemy, and you have an at-will that can deal 2d10 + 1d6 damage from looong range. A rogue is limited to what, D6 weapons because of light blades. So, Sly Flourish + sneak is 3d6 + dex + cha (Although that can be as high as 7, granted.)

I played a game with 2 rangers, 2 wizards, and a paladin. Man, I wanted the rogue back. Sure, they have to make some skill checks, but making it easy to get combat advantage isn't a bad thing altogether for a striker.

A melee rogue typically has combat advantage on every single attack he makes unless he can't be bothered to try for it (ie - minions). Defenders (and tons of other things) are really good for that.

So no, allowing a rogue to ROLL for combat advantage is not really unbalancing at all.

 

[The Grackle]

But it's extra dice rolls every single turn, and that's so... not like 4E. The reason Concealment doesn't give a miss chance now is that it was extra rolling!

Well, you could let the player use a static stealth skill, and, rather than rolling each turn, set the DC at Skill+10. Then the enemy uses its active perception to spot him (as a free action, not a standard).

The player would just say, "stealth mode," and the DM would roll only when a creature actually tries to look for the PC.


Or if you really wanted to streamline it, you could use passive stealth (take 10) versus passive perception and only let the player actively roll for stealth X times an encounter or w/a minor action or some other limitation.