Level Up (A5E) Strength − Size matters

[Snarf Zagyg]

When you are adding a 20-point swing to your ability to lift something due to the d20 die... the fact that some people seem to need half-orcs to have a +1 bonus over haflings in their STR stat is baffling to me.

...

When you are adding 20 points of randomness to ANYTHING in this game, thinking the modifier number is an actual meaningful representation of the character's abilities is ridiculous.

While this point looks good at first, it unfortunately runs into the problem that with bounded accuracy ... that's what you're going to get. A one (or at best 2) point swing to show how awesome you are at something.

Putting all of your ASI into an ability gives you a +1 ability.

The massive advantage of fighting styles for a fighter is ... +2.

Magic (MAGIC!) gives you a +1 ... maybe up to a +3.

So while there might be philosophical reasons to oppose racial bonuses, saying "It's just +1, no big deal" doesn't work that well in 5e.

 

[DND_Reborn]

When you are adding a 20-point swing to your ability to lift something due to the d20 die... the fact that some people seem to need half-orcs to have a +1 bonus over haflings in their STR stat is baffling to me.

If the half-orc and the halfling both roll a d20 plus their STR mod and the half-orc gets to have their mod be one point higher on average cause "Dey bigger and stronger and we need to see that represented in their racial write-up!"... of those possible 400 roll combinations the halfling is still going to win just under HALF of those strength contests. So what exactly did that +1 give you? Almost half the time your half-orc is a CHUMP and getting pwned by the halfling in the strength contest. That +1 bonus did NOTHING to make your half-orc seem stronger than the halflings out there.

When you are adding 20 points of randomness to ANYTHING in this game, thinking the modifier number is an actual meaningful representation of the character's abilities is ridiculous. So no... using stats to signify anything other than a generalization of who the character is, is folly and a waste of time. And thus the game should never screw over potential character combos because it gives the appearance of making some combos less than ideal. Let the halfling and half-orc start potentially even at Level 1 and eventually end even when they buy their stat to 20. It's meaningless if you do otherwise, in my opinion because the game mechanics do little to ever match the fiction.

I do agree with a lot of this, which is one reason why myself and others have gone to using 3d6 or 2d10 or something similar to remove the swinginess from ability checks.

FWIW, rolling flat d20, the halfling would win 42.75% and still tie 4.75%. The half-orc would only win 52.50% of the time. Of course, this rekindles the problematic issue of SIZE in 5E by making small creatures equal to medium ones. Which is why I have always favored advantage/disadvantage in contests for size.

 

[DEFCON 1]

While this point looks good at first, it unfortunately runs into the problem that with bounded accuracy ... that's what you're going to get. A one (or at best 2) point swing to show how awesome you are at something.

Well that's the point... mechanics will NEVER make you look awesome at something.

What will? Rolling really well in dramatically important moments in your game.

Narrative.

It's ALWAYS about the narrative. Anything that makes your character awesome? Happens due to the narrative. Only then. Only ever then. It's NEVER about your character sheet. You can write down whatever numbers you want on that piece of paper and they mean NOTHING. Not until you actually play the game and your character does something. THAT'S when your character becomes awesome. Not because you were given a free +1 bonus to your STR cause your dragonboorn is heavier than your typical gnome.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Well that's the point... mechanics will NEVER make you look awesome at something.

What will? Rolling really well in dramatically important moments in your game.

Narrative.

It's ALWAYS about the narrative. Anything that makes your character awesome? Happens due to the narrative. Only then. Only ever then. It's NEVER about your character sheet. You can write down whatever numbers you want on that piece of paper and they mean NOTHING. Not until you actually play the game and your character does something. THAT'S when your character becomes awesome. Not because you were given a free +1 bonus to your STR cause your dragonboorn is heavier than your typical gnome.

And if mechanics don't make you awesome at something, and only narrative does, then it would seem that there is no issue with racial stat adjustments.

Because if you don't like them, it doesn't matter- they don't have a mechanical impact and all that matters is narrative.

Win win!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I do agree with a lot of this, which is one reason why myself and others have gone to using 3d6 or 2d10 or something similar to remove the swinginess from ability checks.

FWIW, rolling flat d20, the halfling would win 42.75% and still tie 4.75%. The half-orc would only win 52.50% of the time. Of course, this rekindles the problematic issue of SIZE in 5E by making small creatures equal to medium ones. Which is why I have always favored advantage/disadvantage in contests for size.

Heh heh, yeah... if the game really wants to distinguish stats for the different races in any meaningful way... it shouldn't change the modifiers they get, it should change the DIE they have to roll when they make a check!

Half-orcs make STR checks rolling a d20 + STR modifier.
Humans make STR checks rolling a d12 + STR modifier.
Halflings make STR checks rolling a d6 + STR modifier.

I mean, if you're wanting to kill halfling fighter concepts, why half-arse it? Shrink the die they roll and go all the way with it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

And if mechanics don't make you awesome at something, and only narrative does, then it would seem that there is no issue with racial stat adjustments.

Because if you don't like them, it doesn't matter- they don't have a mechanical impact and all that matters is narrative.

Win win!

Great! If you are admitting that what I said is true, then all of you should stop using that as your reasoning for needing racial modifiers in the game because you are arguing from an admitted bad position. If racial mods aren't needed in this way, then you'll have to convince Morrus of another reason they should be kept in. If it's not because they don't do what they say on the box (make half-orcs markedly superior to halflings in all matters of strength), then what else is there?

Best of luck figuring that out!

 

[Minigiant]

If you look at a lot of professional athletes, especially sports like football, this is VERY untrue and promotes a stereotype that someone who is big/strong is likely uncoordinated/clumsy. I've known tons of thinner people who were just as clumsy as bigger people.

Well I'm not really talking about human sized proportions or fictional characters given inhuman size.

I'm mean the perception of above human size like ogres or hulks.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Heh heh, yeah... if the game really wants to distinguish stats for the different races in any meaningful way... it shouldn't change the modifiers they get, it should change the DIE they have to roll when they make a check!

Half-orcs make STR checks rolling a d20 + STR modifier.
Humans make STR checks rolling a d12 + STR modifier.
Halflings make STR checks rolling a d6 + STR modifier.

I mean, if you're wanting to kill halfling fighter concepts, why half-arse it? Shrink the die they roll and go all the way with it.

LOL that might be going a bit far, but yeah I agree overall with your thought.

Personally, I don't like that ability modifiers are linear. I would rather they were progressive, +1, +3, +6, +10, +15; but obviously that throws bounded accuracy out the window!

 

[Minigiant]

Again, this was the comment you made that I didn't understand:

"In modern fantasy, strength and size are not related."

To the extent that you are now qualifying this comment as being in error or hyperbole or overstated to support an argument regarding D&D, I think we are good.

More of less.
I was using hyperbole about size in modern fantasy. To me in fantasy, size either doesn't really matter or it matters a whole lot. There is no real middle ground.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well I'm not really talking about human sized proportions or fictional characters given inhuman size.

I'm mean the perception of above human size like ogres or hulks.

Sorry, but aren't these discussions about human-size (or halfling-size as well) comparisons?

I mean, I don't care for the larger creatures to be considered clumsy either necessarily. Some should, if it fits the description of the creature, but not most of them really.

Interesting side note about DEX. If you look at a sample of most of the monsters in D&D, ever ability score progresses as CR get higher EXCEPT DEX. DEX varies more, but remains "fairly" even throughout.