Stupid Question: PHB3 Minotaur Ferocity...

[Flipguarder]

That's because you're thinking of the damage roll as a fait accompli, which is kinda foolhardy when this rules text exists:

Or just Amnesiacticy.

 

[Obryn]

I'll note that I completely agree than an interrupt, by definition, interrupts the action and happens before it. I think the action it's interrupting is you dropping to 0, though, not the enemy's attack. Otherwise, consider the paragon-tier feat Vicious Ferocity.

With this feat, Minotaur Barbarians with Pressing Strike become essentially unkillable by melee, close, and area attacks. The At-Will lets you shift 2 before the attack, so why not just get the heck out of reach? Neither Ferocity nor the feat require you to make an attack specifically against the enemy who "dropped" you?

Rogues and Rangers have similar At-Wills they can bring into play, though they have shorter shifts.

Even if this is too cheesy, try something like the Battlemind's Bull's Strength or the Fighter's Tide of Iron - just push the enemy away on a hit, negating the attack entirely.

So yeah. Either Vicious Ferocity is broken, or you're actually interrupting dropping to 0 HPs rather than the attack.

-O

 

[Trebor62]

Incorrect.

Immediate Interrupts occur before the -action- that triggered them, irregardless of which individual part of that action was the trigger.

So, yes, Ferocity can kill your opponent, thus rendering him unable to take actions, thus invalidating his entire action.


And in the second case, the melee basic attack can be replaced with an Eldritch Strike (or Savage Rend) and if that causes the opponent to move out of range of the attack, then yes, it does invalidate the attack.


Just so you know, Trebor62, Immediate Interrupts are allowed to invalidate their own trigger, most of them exist to do precisely that.

Dropping to zero hit points starts the dying condition, the immediate interrupt is granting you a free basic attack before the dying condition starts. When dying you normally can only roll your death saves. Your not interrupting the attack or the damage with Ferocity but the onset of the Dying condition.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Incorrect.

Immediate Interrupts occur before the -action- that triggered them, irregardless of which individual part of that action was the trigger.

So, yes, Ferocity can kill your opponent, thus rendering him unable to take actions, thus invalidating his entire action.


And in the second case, the melee basic attack can be replaced with an Eldritch Strike (or Savage Rend) and if that causes the opponent to move out of range of the attack, then yes, it does invalidate the attack.


Just so you know, Trebor62, Immediate Interrupts are allowed to invalidate their own trigger, most of them exist to do precisely that.

Yeah, this is incorrect. The II would invalidate its trigger IF the trigger was the attack, but its not. The trigger is being reduced to 0 or less hit points. These types of triggers don't stop attacks from resolving, they simply provide some sort of response to the damage BEFORE the damage itself has an effect, like knocking you unconscious. If the trigger was on being hit then it would invalidate the hit potentially. If its on the damage resolution step then the hit itself has already happened.

You can toss this question to CS but that will be the answer. You get to punish the guy that knocked you down on your way down, but you still go down.

 

[OhGodtheRats]

So...if it can't interrupt the cause of the damage that dropped you to zero, why did they change it from the original?

Ferocity: If you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, you can
make a melee basic attack before falling unconscious.

That seems so much more clear, if they meant for it to not work like an Immediate Interrupt. And keep in mind Ferocity will ONLY be caused by damage caused by an attack, since you can't take Immediate actions on your own turn. I'm terrible at rules debates, but I think I'm missing something. If an enemy attack drops you to zero that attack is immediately over and the action of you dying is what you interrupt? I'm just looking for clarity. (And I took your advice and am shooting an inquiry to CS at this moment.)

 

[Trebor62]

So...if it can't interrupt the cause of the damage that dropped you to zero, why did they change it from the original?

That seems so much more clear, if they meant for it to not work like an Immediate Interrupt. And keep in mind Ferocity will ONLY be caused by damage caused by an attack, since you can't take Immediate actions on your own turn. I'm terrible at rules debates, but I think I'm missing something. If an enemy attack drops you to zero that attack is immediately over and the action of you dying is what you interrupt? I'm just looking for clarity. (And I took your advice and am shooting an inquiry to CS at this moment.)

It would have been negated by "Never Say Die" the level sixteen Minotaur racial paragon power, which allows you to remain concious until you fail your first death saving throw.

 

[Markn]

So...if it can't interrupt the cause of the damage that dropped you to zero, why did they change it from the original?

That seems so much more clear, if they meant for it to not work like an Immediate Interrupt. And keep in mind Ferocity will ONLY be caused by damage caused by an attack, since you can't take Immediate actions on your own turn. I'm terrible at rules debates, but I think I'm missing something. If an enemy attack drops you to zero that attack is immediately over and the action of you dying is what you interrupt? I'm just looking for clarity. (And I took your advice and am shooting an inquiry to CS at this moment.)

I think the change was specifically to use proper 4e terms. in the first wording, there is no mention of immediate interrupt. Therefore, the minotaur could do it as a free action on his turn or durning another persons turn and there is no limit to the number of times he could do it per round. Changing it to an immediate interrupt limits its use.

 

[Obryn]

You get to punish the guy that knocked you down on your way down, but you still go down.

For the record,you don't need to attack the guy who knocks you down. It can be someone else, too.

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

So...if it can't interrupt the cause of the damage that dropped you to zero, why did they change it from the original?

That seems so much more clear, if they meant for it to not work like an Immediate Interrupt. And keep in mind Ferocity will ONLY be caused by damage caused by an attack, since you can't take Immediate actions on your own turn. I'm terrible at rules debates, but I think I'm missing something. If an enemy attack drops you to zero that attack is immediately over and the action of you dying is what you interrupt? I'm just looking for clarity. (And I took your advice and am shooting an inquiry to CS at this moment.)

I'd be more interested as to what sort of action dying from hit point damage is, is it a free action, or is it an opportunity action?

If it's a free action, can you negate it with the stunned condition?

I'm curious as to how one can say the attack action is a distinct thing from the 'damage action'.

A lot of these rules arguments don't make a lick of sense, and I'm tempted to disregard them for being rediculous.

 

[Obryn]

A lot of these rules arguments don't make a lick of sense, and I'm tempted to disregard them for being rediculous.

OK - so is Vicious Ferocity completely broken, then? I can't imagine the intent of the feat is to let you shift your way out of getting knocked unconscious once per round...

-O