Subclasses should start at 1st level

[payn]

I can live with it, I've just never cared for it. It was especially bad during 3rd edition with their prestige classes. I honestly thought prestige classes were great at first, but in the end I thought they were more trouble than they were worth.

I loved 3E/PF1 multi and prestige classing, but am well aware of the pitfalls and issues. 5E has cleared much of that up.

 

[billd91]

Honestly, given what we've got now and the importance of compatibility, there's more reason to NOT start specialties at 1st level than to do so. Besides, anyone who feels they want to start their games with specialties can start their game at 3rd level with little fuss.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think there is a major difference between D&D being easy to explain and learn and having subclasses at level one. This sounds like cramming a preference into an argument about something unrelated. Also, it's totally anecdotal.

Yeah, this. I’m sympathetic to the idea of keeping the early levels simple and accessible, but if it’s possible to have 1st level class features that are simple enough for new players to handle, then it’s possible to have 1st level subclass features that are simple enough for new players to handle. It doesn’t have to be a choice between a simple start and 1st level subclasses. We can have both.

 

[Charlaquin]

I’d like to see a demonstration of “necessary” as opposed to somebody’s preference.

It would be necessary if key features of the character were tied to subclass. For example, if subclasses came at first level, that could be where your saving throw proficiencies came from, so that different fighters were proficient in different saves depending on subclass. In that case, subclass would be necessary at 1st level because without one, you wouldn’t have a complete character, as you would be lacking save proficiencies.

 

[cbwjm]

Honestly, given what we've got now and the importance of compatibility, there's more reason to NOT start specialties at 1st level than to do so. Besides, anyone who feels they want to start their games with specialties can start their game at 3rd level with little fuss.

People who say " just start at 3rd level" are part of the problem, we all want to start at 1st level, we don't want to ignore it we want to start there and have our subclass shaping our character from the start.

 

[Charlaquin]

So close, you had me until get rid of multi-classing.

I don’t think it has to be either-or. If it’s possible to have 1st level class features that are safe for multiclassing, then it’s possible to have 1st level subclass features that are safe for multiclassing.

 

[cbwjm]

I don’t think it has to be either-or. If it’s possible to have 1st level class features that are safe for multiclassing, then it’s possible to have 1st level subclass features that are safe for multiclassing.

And we know it's possible since we have classes that already start at 1st level. While some might complain about some of the options, it otherwise works fine to multiclass clerics, warlocks, or sorcerers.

 

[Charlaquin]

People who say " just start at 3rd level" are part of the problem, we all want to start at 1st level, we don't want to ignore it we want to start there and have our subclass shaping our character from the start.

It also doesn’t actually address the reasons for wanting subclasses at 1st level. It’s not just that we want to start play at a point where our characters are somewhat specialized - if that was the only reason, “just start at third level” would be a perfectly valid solution. But it’s about more than that. Again, the earlier subclasses start, the greater their ability to transform the base class. 1st level subclasses would allow for the greatest flexibility in subclass design.

 

[billd91]

People who say " just start at 3rd level" are part of the problem, we all want to start at 1st level, we don't want to ignore it we want to start there and have our subclass shaping our character from the start.

Yeah, well, maybe the people saying start at 3rd level don't necessarily want to change the game so classes start with specialties. The difference here is there already is a situation in which you can start with specialties, and that's starting at 3rd level.
In other words, there already is a compromise solution out there - redesign of classes with specialties at 1st level removes it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And also, you are selling a game with levels 1-20, so actually make a 1-20 game, not a game where you're actually the character you intended to make 3-20 and according to some design attempts just stop at 9, 10, or 12.