Sunder -- The most useful useless feat

[IceBear]

Yeah, though I'd be inclined to not allow GMW to overcome DR either if I went with this house rule. There should be some advantage to having a +5 sword than having a +5 sword from GWM (other than ease of dispelling that it )

Anyway, I still don't think there were many DMs on here advocating going out of their way to sunder PCs equipment - they just said they would use it if needed and they wouldn't let a *player* prevent them from doing so because of fear of upsetting him/her.

IceBear

 

[Tom Cashel]

Anyway, I still don't think there were many DMs on here advocating going out of their way to sunder PCs equipment - they just said they would use it if needed and they wouldn't let a *player* prevent them from doing so because of fear of upsetting him/her.

I agree with this. "Bust it all!" was a hyperbolic bit of bollocks.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

One thing that should be done if you sunder as a DM is semi-frequently fail at sundering because the magic + is too small. The Pcs opponents shouldn't amgically know that thier sword is more magical so sundering is now a good tactic.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That rather depends upon what the players sword is. If it's one of those magic weapons that sheds light, it's pretty obvious that the player's sword is enchanted. Similarly, if the players sword has an energy enhancement on it, it's obvious.

Otherwise, you're right. As a DM, I've used sunder in several occasions in Living Greyhawk. In one of those occasions, a group of axe wielding brigands attempted to sunder a Lasher's whip-dagger. Would've worked if it wasn't magical too. Oh well, there was no way for the bad guy to know that. (Other occasions were much more satisfying like when the troll smashed the bow of the archer who thought himself safe because he had a shield spell up and was firing his arrows from 5 feet away. That changed the fight a lot And I didn't even have to feel bad because it wasn't a magic bow (wouldn't have worked if it had been) so the party cleric just cast Make Whole on it the next day).

One thing that should be done if you sunder as a DM is semi-frequently fail at sundering because the magic + is too small. The Pcs opponents shouldn't amgically know that thier sword is more magical so sundering is now a good tactic.

 

[Nail]

Charging a(competent) Archer should be the last stupid mistake you ever make.
<shrugs>
But thats a whole new thread...

Yep....a whole new topic. Sucks tryin' t' explain D&D wit' RL, doesn't it?

AoO does not mean the provokee has a "loaded weapon, just waitin' t' use it". It means the provokee has a weapon "handy". There's a pretty big difference there. A bow isn't "handy" unless it's "loaded", ....an' that's what yer normal attacks per round represent.

Realistically, no AoOs w/ missile weapons models RL pretty well. Amazing, that.

 

[Marshall]

(Other occasions were much more satisfying like when the troll smashed the bow of the archer who thought himself safe because he had a shield spell up and was firing his arrows from 5 feet away. That changed the fight a lot

Well theres another problem. Just why didnt that shield spell block your Sunder attempt? Isnt that what the spell does? What about my Ring of Deflection +5?

For that matter it brings up another instance when Sunder is useful : When the opponents AC is high. Take away his weapon and you take away his ability to do damage to you and you open him up to other touch AC attacks. That happens often and its usually easier to take out the guys weapon than just hit him.

 

[IceBear]

I would allow the shield spell and similar magics to affect the sunder attempt. Seems logical to me.

IceBear

 

[hong]

What if we changed the rules slightly? In order to sunder an item, your weapon must "naturally" have the same enhancement (ie, pluses from GMW wouldn't count for purposes of sundering)

How's that for a start?

IceBear

Personally, I'm more of a mind to change the GMW spell. It causes other problems, not just sundering.

How about one or more of the following:
- GMW gives your weapon an effective bonus for the purpose of bypassing DR, but not anything else (you don't get a bonus to attacks and damage, and you can't sunder)

- reduce its duration from 1 hour/level to 1 minute/level, or less

- make it +1/4 caster levels, instead of +1/3 caster levels. Or even +1/5 caster levels, which would mean you couldn't get a +5 weapon without breaking into the Epic range.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well theres another problem. Just why didnt that shield spell block your Sunder attempt? Isnt that what the spell does? What about my Ring of Deflection +5?

For that matter it brings up another instance when Sunder is useful : When the opponents AC is high. Take away his weapon and you take away his ability to do damage to you and you open him up to other touch AC attacks. That happens often and its usually easier to take out the guys weapon than just hit him.

Well, in this case, the shield spell might arguably count towards the bow's AC since attacking a bow is technically attacking a held object according to the Sage (and I agree). That section of the PH doesn't specify that cover bonusses apply to the AC of a held item but common sense suggests that some cover might apply to the object. The rules do specify that deflection bonusses apply so the ring of deflection +5 would help as well.

WRT melee weapons, shield has no effect upon sunder since they are attacking your weapon and not you. The shield spell produces a magical disk of force that protects your body but moves out of the way of your weapons. As a side effect of that (and the fact that the game rules specify an opposed attack roll--in which AC plays no part), the Shield spell does nothing to protect against Sunder. (And should not). It would be a fair house rule to apply any nonmagical cover bonusses to AC to the defender's attack roll in a sunder attempt though. In fact, I'd probably do that in the case of nonmobile cover.

As for Sunder being useful when the opponent's AC is high, the opponent's AC has to be higher than 10+[opponent's attack bonus] in order for this to be true. (Otherwise, your odds are just as good for hitting the opponent as for breaking their weapon). In the case of a defensively maximized fighter using expertise, this may be true. Similarly, it will often be true in the case of a defensively maximized fighter/wizard.

Another entry into the calculus is the opponent needs to be using a non-metal hafted, non adamantium weapon. Even with improved Sunder, there'd be no point in trying to hack through an adamantium heavy mace (or in my interpretation, an adamantium light flail, heavy flail, or spiked chain).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Personally, I'm more of a mind to change the GMW spell. It causes other problems, not just sundering.

How about one or more of the following:
- GMW gives your weapon an effective bonus for the purpose of bypassing DR, but not anything else (you don't get a bonus to attacks and damage, and you can't sunder)

GMW would become a never prepared scroll spell to carry around and use only when encountering a creature with high DR. I suspect most people (except for archers) would just get the Sure Striking Enhancement from Sword and Fist (if available) and never use GMW again.

- reduce its duration from 1 hour/level to 1 minute/level, or less

Anything with DR greater than x/silver would pretty much become immune to archers. The cost of buying real magic arrows is prohibitive. For a single combat, GMW is generally not worth a 3rd or 4th level spell slot (unless it can be precast which it can't reliably with a 1 minute duration).

- make it +1/4 caster levels, instead of +1/3 caster levels. Or even +1/5 caster levels, which would mean you couldn't get a +5 weapon without breaking into the Epic range.

This is probably the most balanced suggestion. +1/4 caster levels would prevent +5 enhancement bonusses from being matter of course until 20th level (except via Beads of Karma). +1/5 levels would prevent even Beads of Karma from enabling the +5 break. OTOH, +1/5 levels would also make it very difficult for the spell to serve one of its primary purposes--enabling the bypassing of damage reduction. By 8th level, creatures with DR x/+2 are relatively common--especially among fiendish and celestial templated creatures. DR x/+3 becomes common well before 15th level so 1/5 levels is probably too harsh.