D&D 5E Super Monk Jumps

[5ekyu]

As [MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] pointed out earlier, Xanathar's clarifies that the proper name of the effect is what is important for determining what stacks rather than the effect itself. So multiple jump spells do not stack, but jump should stack with Step of the Wind.

Step of the Wind merely allows the monk to jump as well as a strength fighter at the cost of a ki point.

Exactly... Thats why you need to read after your snip. I went on to show the effects ADD TOGETHER vs say MULTIPLY EACH OTHER.

A jump spell doubles your jump distance which in a 10' jump starting point ends up a 10' gain. The effect is to add 10. The ki triples... Increse 20.

ADD TOGETHER 10 gain and 20 gain and get 30 gain.

The MULTIPLY TOGETHER ignores the ADD and the 20+30=50 counts the base 10 twice.

Maybe i should have bolded the ADD TOGETHER?

Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Step of the Wind merely allows the monk to jump as well as a strength fighter at the cost of a ki point.

Or an athletic monk to jump twice as far as a strength fighter.

 

[Tormyr]

Exactly... Thats why you need to read after your snip. I went on to show the effects ADD TOGETHER vs say MULTIPLY EACH OTHER.

A jump spell doubles your jump distance which in a 10' jump starting point ends up a 10' gain. The effect is to add 10. The ki triples... Increse 20.

ADD TOGETHER 10 gain and 20 gain and get 30 gain.

The MULTIPLY TOGETHER ignores the ADD and the 20+30=50 counts the base 10 twice.

Maybe i should have bolded the ADD TOGETHER?

Sent from my VS995 using EN World mobile app

Except that is not what either Step of the Wind or the jump spell says to do. Neither says your original jump distance is doubled, and no 5e mechanic that I am aware of separates out the original value for adding cumulative bonuses together in this way. It seems to be a mechanic from other games.

Step of the Wind says "...and your jump distance is doubled for the turn." A STR 10 monk who uses this has a jump distance of 20 feet. The jump spell says "...The creature's jump distance is tripled until the spell ends." A STR 10 monk under the effect of this spell has a jump distance of 30 feet. If the STR 10 monk is under the effect of jump and then uses Step of the Wind, its jump distance, which was 30 ft., is doubled to 60 ft until the end of its turn.

Step of the Wind, jump, Remarkable Athlete, Second-Story Work, and likely other features all fit into the "specific trumps general" concept for jumping and override the general jumping rules. All of them change a creature's jump distance while they are in effect. I would not think that someone would not calculate Remarkable Athlete or Second-Story Work into the distance tripled by a jump spell or Step of the Wind. Neither should the effects of jump or Step of the Wind not be included solely because their effect is temporary.

EDIT: See my later post where I say the jump distance should be 40 ft.

 

[Tormyr]

Or an athletic monk to jump twice as far as a strength fighter.

If a player wants to sacrifice Dex or Wis, which are more useful for a monk, for higher Str, sure. The player has likely traded higher AC, higher save DC, or both for a longer jump distance. Additionally, full distance jumps from this monk would run up against even the monk's impressive speed (even with a Dash).

 

[5ekyu]

Except that is not what either Step of the Wind or the jump spell says to do. Neither says your original jump distance is doubled, and no 5e mechanic that I am aware of separates out the original value for adding cumulative bonuses together in this way. It seems to be a mechanic from other games.

Step of the Wind says "...and your jump distance is doubled for the turn." A STR 10 monk who uses this has a jump distance of 20 feet. The jump spell says "...The creature's jump distance is tripled until the spell ends." A STR 10 monk under the effect of this spell has a jump distance of 30 feet. If the STR 10 monk is under the effect of jump and then uses Step of the Wind, its jump distance, which was 30 ft., is doubled to 60 ft until the end of its turn.

Step of the Wind, jump, Remarkable Athlete, Second-Story Work, and likely other features all fit into the "specific trumps general" concept for jumping and override the general jumping rules. All of them change a creature's jump distance while they are in effect. I would not think that someone would not calculate Remarkable Athlete or Second-Story Work into the distance tripled by a jump spell or Step of the Wind. Neither should the effects of jump or Step of the Wind not be included solely because their effect is temporary.

Actually, i am suggesting the specific does trump the general.

the general in this case are the two effects.

the specific is when they are combined... the specific rule on what happens when effects are combined.

it says ADD TOGETHER not multiply together.

Also, the 10' of original movement is not a spell effect so it should not get added twice any more than two effects which increase your AC allow you to count your base AC10 twice.

If your proposal is that the individual spell language should trump the specific rule about what happens when spell effects combine, then that rule is practically useless.

but again, this is mt take based on the rules presented.

 

[Tormyr]

Actually, i am suggesting the specific does trump the general.

the general in this case are the two effects.

the specific is when they are combined... the specific rule on what happens when effects are combined.

it says ADD TOGETHER not multiply together.

Also, the 10' of original movement is not a spell effect so it should not get added twice any more than two effects which increase your AC allow you to count your base AC10 twice.

If your proposal is that the individual spell language should trump the specific rule about what happens when spell effects combine, then that rule is practically useless.

but again, this is mt take based on the rules presented.

Thanks for pointing this out (again). Based on the text under Combining Magical Effects, which I had not read in a while, I would agree that since Step of the Wind is essentially a spell-like effect, the monk in our example would have a jump distance of 40 ft (the original distance + the effect of Step of the Wind + the effect of jump). This goes back to [MENTION=6748898]ad_hoc[/MENTION] 's ruling all the way at the beginning.

I know that some people get combative and hold to their positions when discussing the finer points of rules and rulings, but I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these things especially when someone such as you keeps their head about it. Sometimes I think I have a pretty good picture of how the rules work. Other times, like now, I realize that I missed something. Regardless of the outcome of a discussion, I am better prepared for a ruling at the table, have my reason ready, and move on. Cheers.

 

[5ekyu]

Why not 60ft? Does it in amy way break the game? I don't think so and I rather think it is quite cool. So I would go with x6. If yoj gave the character winged boots instead he would be more mobile. Note that jumbping does not directly prevent opportunity attacks or anything. You should however know the advantages and disadvantages of jumping 30ft high during that jump.

well the flip side would also be "why not 50? why not 40?"

What makes 60 more cool than 50?

None of these will break the game. the differences will be small/

the only really question is if the process is applied evenly.

My argument against 60 specifically is that the specific rule for combining spell effects specifies ADD TOGETHER not MULTIPLY and taking one effect that gives you 20' total jump and another that gives you 30' total jump and contriving them to give you 60' total jump when added together (more than the sum of the two effects independently) seems inconsistent.

But in now way do i think its going to break a game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Since there is no stacking rule like in 3e i would assume x2 amd then x3 is x6...

 

[Tormyr]

Since there is no stacking rule like in 3e i would assume x2 amd then x3 is x6...

As [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] pointed out, there is. Under Combining Magical Effects, it says the effects are added together rather than multiplied. This means each effect is taken in isolation before all effects are added together.

This could be read as the effect is the additional distance gained. In that case the additional 10 feet from doubling and the additional 20 feet from tripling a 10 foot jump distance would be added to the original jump distance and result in a 40 foot jump distance.

It could also be argued that the total jump distance is the magical effect. In that case the effects are added together (2x + 3x = 5x).

I prefer the former as more closely models the effect of the magic to me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] pointed out, there is. Under Combining Magical Effects, it says the effects are added together rather than multiplied. This means each effect is taken in isolation before all effects are added together.

This could be read as the effect is the additional distance gained. In that case the additional 10 feet from doubling and the additional 20 feet from tripling a 10 foot jump distance would be added to the original jump distance and result in a 40 foot jump distance.

It could also be argued that the total jump distance is the magical effect. In that case the effects are added together (2x + 3x = 5x).

I prefer the former as more closely models the effect of the magic to me.

Neither is broken. If you want to read it that way, you surely can.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using EN World mobile app