Superheroes of the Trust OOC Thread II

[DM_Matt]

I really disagree. I think that really removes so many things from the game. Let me explain my reasoning:

First, if power stunting is so flexible, then hero points become a "catchall" and the Luck feat becomes the most valuable feat in the game; to the point that it occludes almost any other use of a power feat. Example:

I am EctoSpasm, the spectral defender! My telekinesis takes the form of wispy strands of ectoplasm that can grab and punch. Because they are solid and gaseous, and ghostly, I take the Affects Insubstantial power feat. 90% of the time, this feat does nothing for me, because insubstantial foes are rare. But then we face Nocturne, the Perfidous Poltergeist! Finally it is my time to shine!

...but the Wolverine decides his claws "are dense enough" and...why did I take that feat? I could have had a Hero Point that will do the same thing, effectively, and will still be useful when I'm not facing ghosts.

Secondly, it makes powers that are limited by descriptor FAR more valuable than they would ordinarily be. The whole point of powers that are limited by descriptor is that...they are limited by descriptor. Why should I pay for a Nullify that affects a broad range of effects, when I can buy a more limited Nullify, and just power stunt it as needed?

Edit - That's great for Jean Grey. Who's not Jean Grey? Me. And "fairly close thematically" is one of those overly broad classifications I was talking about. Light is "fairly close thematically" to x-rays and gamma rays...does that mean Dazzler can irradiate the city?

The way I imagine TK working is that it creates magical force that pushes/lifts/etc. stuff, so he attacked the curtain of magical force you were grabbing the bee with. To me its pushing it, but within the boundaries of this particularly powerful weapon.

If I were to make him stunt it, I'm not sure that would change much. If Wren stunts that TP to get to the surface, it wont matter.

As far as: "Why should I pay for a Nullify that affects a broad range of effects, when I can buy a more limited Nullify, and just power stunt it as needed?" Its a matter of how often you want to Nullify and how broad what you want to nullify is. If you can stunt a nullify, you can AP a nullify, so its a matter of whether you would use it enough to buy it or else you should stunt it rarely.

 

[DM_Matt]

I also object to the idea that anyone with a Nullify power can just "power stunt" to get around the limits of their ability to deal with specific situations. Doesn't that kind of kick the whole point of having limitations in the nutsack?

Well, I think that its within descriptors to nullify based on what I said before, but a stunt changes the criteria from descriptors on the nullify power up a level to descriptors on the entire attack.

 

[Shayuri]

The way I imagine TK working is that it creates magical force that pushes/lifts/etc. stuff, so he attacked the curtain of magical force you were grabbing the bee with. To me its pushing it, but within the boundaries of this particularly powerful weapon.

But of course, I imagine it as working by making a swarm of invisible fairies move things around. Or, no, by making unmanifest spirits reach through the ether.

Wait though, my TK doesn't have the [Fairy] or [Spirit] descriptor?

Doesn't have the [Magical Force] descriptor either.

I disagree with the notion that because I didn't define a specific descriptor for TK, that means the GM is free to define it as he sees fit, especially when it's pretty clearly just to grant a combat advantage for an NPC. If there's some question as to whether or not a power would fit into a particular paradigm...you could always ask. "Hey, Shay. How's that TK of yours work? I need to know with some specificity. Is it just a magical forcefield that grabs stuff, or a focusing of lunar gravity or...what?"

Look...bottom line for me...I don't want to be in a position where I'm in a fundamental conflict over game philosophy with the GM. It is a no-win situation. It makes me unhappy...it makes the GM unhappy because he has to deal with my griping...it makes everyone else unhappy. Being unhappy is not fun for anyone. I think that's where I am, unfortunately. This sort of thing has, in various permutations, come up before, though I haven't always said anything. It will continue coming up. No one seems to have a problem with it but me.

I've given it some thought, therefore, and decided to resign from the game. This is a dramatically appropriate moment to write Thessaly out. I realize this may look like an act of spite or petulance, but that isn't how I feel about it. If it was just me being angry, I'd try to work it out. Rather, I fully believe that the game will be better for all involved without the conflict that my presence will bring. I also believe that I will be happier without that conflict. And finally I believe that the conflict does not have a resolution...it is not based in fact or letter of rule, but rather in personal aesthetic and interpretation of rule. This doesn't make either side invalid, but it does mean that there is no objective wrong or right, only agreement or disagreement.

I hope you all continue to have an entertaining and rewarding game. Thank you all for including me.

 

[Victim]

It was nice playing with you.

 

[Elric]

It was nice playing with you.

Agreed. You will be missed.

I know Matt's been very busy recently and has been struggling to get rounds up at all, which accounts for the somewhat haphazard nature of this fight. So I think he would have done more due diligence on everything throughout this whole fight (not just this particular issue) if he wasn't so busy in real life.

 

[DM_Matt]

Agreed. You will be missed.

I know Matt's been very busy recently and has been struggling to get rounds up at all, which accounts for the somewhat haphazard nature of this fight. So I think he would have done more due diligence on everything throughout this whole fight (not just this particular issue) if he wasn't so busy in real life.

Yeah, this is the case. I really do hope you'd reconsider I try to rectify mistakes and disagreements like this, and usually I've changed things in light of a major complaint. Force was my impression of how this would work by magical physics (and the default descriptor in UP), but I understand that you disagree. May I ask what those other times were where Ive done this? I don't recall, and if there is a pattern of me making borderline assumptions about people's powers, I'd like to know so I can be more diligent about respecting PC power autonomy.

(Also, tis a pity since I had a Viridian-specific story arc idea I was going to use soon)

 

[Shayuri]

First I will apologize. As I reread my post, I see that some snark escaped, and the post has some inflammatory content as a result. Sorry.

At the moment it's hard for me to put my finger on specific events. The game has been a long one, and I haven't exactly been keeping notes. As such, short of going back and rereading the threads in their entirety, I also apologize for making criticisms that may be too vague or blanket to do any good.

And honestly, many of the "problems" aren't really problems at all. They're just clashes of game style.

You have a very confrontational GMing style. That's not a bad thing, but it's something that ticks me off sometimes. The game also has a very high combat/low RP ratio, which is a bit of a turn off for me. There's little to no integration of character backgrounds...I feel like we're all just frameworks to hang powers on sometimes. And finally, I'm not terribly pleased with the mechanics of my character in the context of the enemies we face. That's not a problem you have any control over, of course.

Most of these things have been issues for me since very early on. I want to reiterate too, that I don't think it's a bad game. It's just not "my kind" of game.

I think too that 'confrontational GM'ing style' probably needs some explanation, since it sounds insulting. It means that I get the feeling that you see your role as GM to be challenge/defeat the PC's with each battle. Rather than have the encounters set up according to the dictates of a larger story, or for dramatic build, the encounters are created with the intention of beating us. Here are the things that give me that impression:
- Overuse of Fiat. Your villains do this -all the fricking time-. I don't know if you realize how demoralizing it is to be getting your arse kicked, finally FINALLY get a break...and then see that "He rerolled, you get a hero point" message.
- Overuse of Superminions. For whatever reason, it seems like the scrubs are all armed with nuclear bazookas or something. And yes, I know...they're minions of a supergadgeteerwizard who equips them with magitech nuclear bazookas. I'm not talking about the story justification for -why- they're superminions. I don't even argue that superminions can be great...when used sparingly.
- Overuse of supersupervillains. This may be unfair, because obviously I can't see the sheets...or dice rolls...but judging by combat results, the vast majority of the heroic villains we've been facing over the past three or four encounters have been significantly over our PL. How many times now has Nitro delivered a devastating blow...that did a bruise...and then been staggered, stunned, bruised, injured, etc on the return despite all his uncrackable hide? Like before, I like the supersupervillain...especially as a solo foe who HAS to be badass to fight a bunch of peeps. That's a genre staple. Again, the issue isn't use of, it's overuse of. What if every single fight the X-Men had involved tag-teams with Magneto, Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix?
- Everything is a fight. The primary conflicts in the game are combat-oriented. Every method of advancing the plot involves going somewhere and fighting. I'm not sure any of us have ever rolled a skill that wasn't combat-related, or for relatively irrelevant character side stuff.
- If I can find more specific examples that establish a pattern of rules judgements, I'll put it here. I won't make the claim officially until and unless I do.

Again, the mantra. None of these things are necessarily -bad- things. But it's not the way I like to play. Again, this is not new...it's been how it worked all along. I feel like I've given it a chance, and I feel like I've given myself a chance. It just isn't working for me.

I appreciate you had things planned for me. It is flattering, and it is tempting. I regret I won't have the chance to explore that arc.

I hope this is of some use to you. It's not intended as a beratement or a laundry list of shortcomings. All I mean for it to be is a list of things I feel separate us as player and GM. Other players clearly lack these hangups, and so are perfectly happy with the game.

Again, happy gaming to everyone.

 

[kirinke]

I'm sorry to see you go...... I think you'll always be welcomed back if you decide to use another character.

 

[Elric]

I think too that 'confrontational GM'ing style' probably needs some explanation, since it sounds insulting. It means that I get the feeling that you see your role as GM to be challenge/defeat the PC's with each battle. Rather than have the encounters set up according to the dictates of a larger story, or for dramatic build, the encounters are created with the intention of beating us. Here are the things that give me that impression:
- Overuse of Fiat. Your villains do this -all the fricking time-. I don't know if you realize how demoralizing it is to be getting your arse kicked, finally FINALLY get a break...and then see that "He rerolled, you get a hero point" message.

I find this to be one of the most challenging aspects of GMing M&M. I think it's hard to get a line between the players feeling like you're "letting them win" and combats generally being suspense-less romps in favor of the heroes and ruthless GM playing including lots of use of Fiat that drags fights on and makes the players feel like their cool moves are never paying off (players can get caught without hero points, but GMs are less likely to get caught with Fiat unavailable).

I've tried to sort of mentally categorize fights into "Villains meant and likely to lose. Don't go all-out as GM" and "Boss-type fight. It's a war out there!" but this is GMing table-top gaming, where it's much easier to run fights than online. I think the medium is pushing us into the 'all boss fight, all the time' kind of setup that we have now.

Edit- that said, we've hard some easier fights (the warehouse where we rescued the scientist, for example). I think Shayuri that you felt particularly affronted by GM Fiat because you rarely had Viridian spending her HP. It was almost exclusively on rerolling saves, but you could have easily surged in this last round of combat just now (had I been paying more attention to the fact that she had 2 HP, I probably would have suggested this OOC) and used two powers (spending an HP to buy off the fatigue). This might have let you pin both Bunny and Bee or pin Bee and form a Create Objects shield, and so on. Nitro has never ended any fight with more than 1 HP that I can remember- he gets them and then spends them.

- Overuse of supersupervillains. This may be unfair, because obviously I can't see the sheets...or dice rolls...but judging by combat results, the vast majority of the heroic villains we've been facing over the past three or four encounters have been significantly over our PL. How many times now has Nitro delivered a devastating blow...that did a bruise...and then been staggered, stunned, bruised, injured, etc on the return despite all his uncrackable hide?

It's partly the size of our group, which necessitates tough enemies. In this fight I'd imagine the villains weren't much higher PL than us on average (I doubt they averaged even PL 12) but some of them had nastier attack forms than any of us (Killer Bee!) and there were so many of them (Control Freak, his 3 guards, Efreet, Pharoah, Guardian, Leopard- to 7 of us due to Raylis's absence).

Side note: Though I know what you're saying here, Nitro doesn't even have a Toughness/Defense tradeoff. Viridian's Toughness save is 4 higher than his. Nitro's just inexorable due to regeneration/not taking lethal physical damage and he has Ultimate Save to make saves in dramatic moments. He's supposed to get knocked around like crazy as every wrestler should be.

- Everything is a fight. The primary conflicts in the game are combat-oriented. Every method of advancing the plot involves going somewhere and fighting. I'm not sure any of us have ever rolled a skill that wasn't combat-related, or for relatively irrelevant character side stuff.

This game is definitely combat heavy, but we're not 'never using skill checks.' From Nitro's bluffing the guard in the first encounter ("I'm here for Miss White- your Steroid Cream") to recently, we have been rolling out of combat skill checks. A recent example (this last bit was particularly combat-heavy and RP-light, so let me go back one fight )

Viridian recognizes the new image from drawings she's seen (yay knowledge checks). She's pretty sure that's not AN Ares. That's THE Ares.

 

[Victim]

Moving to ATT is looking better and better.