Superheroes of the Trust OOC Thread II

[Jemal]

I hate to say it, but I don't have the time to be checking multiple boards for games, that's why I've kept all my gaming here at ENWorld.
Granted it's been... 'difficult' lately, which is a part of why I've been having troubles posting (though not the only reason).
If the game does end up moving to another board, I may have to cut out.

Besides, how could I abandon my post-count?

Seriously speaking though, I didn't get a chance to weigh in when during the "Shayuri situation", so here's my belated 2-cents.

First I really enjoy this game, and these characters.

That having been said, I have sometimes felt similar to the problems Shayuri recently expressed. Each of the badguys seems like he or she was built as a "One vs team" badguy, And then when they ALL appear in the same place, the results can be... painful. I see where Shayuri's coming from on this, but I personally find it fun to be on the weaker side and trying to break out and win despite the odds.. that's what Heros are, isn't it?

However...
I also agree that GM Fiat has been over-used on occasion, which makes it difficult to BE those heroes beating the odds stacked against them when LUCK is stacked against them as well. The problem is that as players, we have a limited pool of Hero points(Usually starting at one), and as the GM, you can use them whenever you feel like it, and we often have to use the resulting HP just to survive!
I think my problem, more personally speaking, and the one that ticked me off most, was using a Hero Point in an attempt to put down CF when he was weakened and it seemed like our only chance. I thought it was a fitting comic-book encounter/attack, and fairly cool.. Then he fiats to make the save... It made me using a hero point WORSE than nonexistant.

Think about it: If he'd MADE the save naturally, my HP would've been used and I would've gained nothing. Since he failed, the GM uses Fiat, saying he makes it, and returning my HP to me... If the situations are like that, there's no reason to use HP EVER except for defense, b/c if you use them for offense you either loose them with no advantage gained, or you get them back and nothing happens anyways.

It wouldn't be bad except that I've seen on numerous occasions badguys fiat multiple times in a single encounter. (Read CF again. He fiated to make the save vs me, then fiated on his next turn to reroll an attack that missed me)

Also, on another note - I never got an answer as to how CF managed to control my visor AND my suit AND attack me...


Now, I'm hoping not to make you angry, but I had to get that out in the open. It did/does bother me, and (even though I'm certain this wasn't the case) made me feel like you were out to get me personally. I'd like to talk about it and figure out.. well, a lot of things..
Was this a 'scripted' fight and you just wanted to keep it going the right way?
Did you not realize you were using Fiat so much? (Obviously I primarily noticed it's effects on my character, but it appears I'm not the only one who noticed)
Do you have any problems that need to be adressed?
What was CF using to immobilize Optic? Is there a way Optic could learn to counter it(as he also has the datalink power), or a safety feature he could imprint into his suit/visor to prevent it in the future?
why do hot dogs come in packages of 12 and hot dog buns come in packages of 8?
Can we continue to game together amicably/peacefully?

 

[Elric]

That having been said, I have sometimes felt similar to the problems Shayuri recently expressed. Each of the badguys seems like he or she was built as a "One vs team" badguy, And then when they ALL appear in the same place, the results can be... painful. I see where Shayuri's coming from on this, but I personally find it fun to be on the weaker side and trying to break out and win despite the odds.. that's what Heros are, isn't it?

I asked Matt about this, actually- besides Control Freak all of our opponents this fight were all PL 11 (he tried to post about this, but the boards ate the post).

I also agree that GM Fiat has been over-used on occasion, which makes it difficult to BE those heroes beating the odds stacked against them when LUCK is stacked against them as well. The problem is that as players, we have a limited pool of Hero points(Usually starting at one), and as the GM, you can use them whenever you feel like it, and we often have to use the resulting HP just to survive!
I think my problem, more personally speaking, and the one that ticked me off most, was using a Hero Point in an attempt to put down CF when he was weakened and it seemed like our only chance. I thought it was a fitting comic-book encounter/attack, and fairly cool.. Then he fiats to make the save... It made me using a hero point WORSE than nonexistant.

Honestly, if hero points were not stronger when used on defense than when used on attack, fights would be too short, as there would be no incentive to save HP for defensive uses. That's what you ran into here. That said, had you used Extra Effort to Surge and hit him a second time you would have dealt him 17 more damage against which he wouldn't have been able to use Improved Roll (having already used it for the round). That would have had a good chance of taking him out. And at 17 damage CF could have easily still been stunned by the attack after rerolling his save (he actually took a bruise even on the reroll). Generally, gaining a feat with Heroic Feat isn’t a great option if you’re only going to use it for one attack—but if you’re going to use it for two with Extra Effort it starts to look a lot better. You have to be a little more clever about using HP on offense to get full effect out of them.

But it's harder for players to use conditional tactics like this in an online game. By comparison, it's much easier for a GM to use good villain tactics, since he has the advantage of getting to make his decisions in real game-time (and doesn't have to generally specify rerolls in advance, and so on). Also, unlike table-top gaming, the GM doesn’t run into time problems while trying to do tactics for all the villains, many of whom he hasn’t built and/or has never run in a combat (in table-top games, I’m a much worse tactician when GM than when I’m a player).

By the way, I think that had you moved and then Surged to coup de grace the bound Control Freak (as a full-action), that would have knocked him out almost for sure.

Think about it: If he'd MADE the save naturally, my HP would've been used and I would've gained nothing. Since he failed, the GM uses Fiat, saying he makes it, and returning my HP to me... If the situations are like that, there's no reason to use HP EVER except for defense, b/c if you use them for offense you either loose them with no advantage gained, or you get them back and nothing happens anyways.

It wouldn't be bad except that I've seen on numerous occasions badguys fiat multiple times in a single encounter. (Read CF again. He fiated to make the save vs me, then fiated on his next turn to reroll an attack that missed me)

Fiat isn’t limited to once an encounter per villain. It’s just like hero points, once per personal round per function. See my points above about HP on offense vs. defense.

Lastly the problem that you note where the GM can’t run out of fiats for a character but we can run out of HP is particularly pronounced in these huge 8-on-8 style fights, where the course of the combat is much more likely to leave a few PCs out of HP and a few PCs with more HP than they need, but not that much good stuff to do with those HP.

Also, on another note - I never got an answer as to how CF managed to control my visor AND my suit AND attack me...

He didn’t do all of that in one round. For how he immobilized your visor/suit in general: Control Freak is a nearly plot-level powerful technopath. His technopath abilities are one of the most powerful things we’ve seen this whole campaign, from anyone.

As I pointed out above, you lost a round due to not posting an action for it, and then Matt just mixed up your initiative order in a later round, which actually worked to your benefit in practice (though generally that would work to your detriment…). This fight was run pretty badly in general, but I know Matt’s been very busy recently and by the time the next fight rolls around it will be run better.

 

[Jemal]

I guess that's where much of my problem stems from is that I was pairing off with the BBEG and I just figured they were all about the same power level, as everyone seemed to be having problems.

By the way, I think that had you moved and then Surged to coup de grace the bound Control Freak (as a full-action), that would have knocked him out almost for sure.

As has been pointed out numerous times to me, he was free by the time I got there b/c I missed a round due to being unavailable (My fault, I admit), so that point's kinda moot.

Lastly the problem that you note where the GM can’t run out of fiats for a character but we can run out of HP is particularly pronounced in these huge 8-on-8 style fights, where the course of the combat is much more likely to leave a few PCs out of HP and a few PCs with more HP than they need, but not that much good stuff to do with those HP.

I noticed.

He didn’t do all of that in one round. For how he immobilized your visor/suit in general: Control Freak is a nearly plot-level powerful technopath. His technopath abilities are one of the most powerful things we’ve seen this whole campaign, from anyone.

As I pointed out above, you lost a round due to not posting an action for it, and then Matt just mixed up your initiative order in a later round, which actually worked to your benefit in practice (though generally that would work to your detriment…). This fight was run pretty badly in general, but I know Matt’s been very busy recently and by the time the next fight rolls around it will be run better.

loosing my round earlier doesn't factor in, what I was concerned about happened after that. Here's the timeline I see:
We're Upstairs, he goes downstairs, I miss round. THEN:
Round x: I show up & hit him, he fiats to make it, then immobilizes my suit.
Round x+1: He shoots me (Fiat to reroll miss), I have to spend an HP to shoot him b/c apparently my visor doesn't work either (though I was never told this, or Why, or How, even though I asked both in the IC and OOC threads.)
As to it working to my benefit, I fail to see how.


And finally, re: Boards eating posts. I'm not sure if this'll work for everyone, but I've been Copying my posts before i submit them, and if it eats them, I just do it again. usually the second try works.

 

[Elric]

As to it working to my benefit, I fail to see how.

He attacks you and misses, using Fiat to reroll, but still misses. That gives you an HP but didn't inflict any harm. Plus, CF has already used his Reroll for the round, so he couldn't reroll his toughness save when you Blasted him. Then that he would have been before you in future rounds didn't matter because he got knocked out before his turn came up again (and then you got knocked out before he got back up...).

 

[DM_Matt]

Elric's been doing a good job of defending me, but I obviously need to addres some of this stuff directly.

First of all, a general apology about this fight not being as organized as it should have. I've been extremely busy IRL.

Second, a word on difficulty. Due to the inefficience of PBP gaming, I'm not big on easy fights. If we are going to do a fight that you'll probably win, it might as well be a tough fight. My view of FIating is basically as villain points. Since villains have no pp cap, they could have unlimited ranks of the luck feat, so instead in MM they get no hp (generally...I will sometimes give them some luck limited to being used to power certain feats and powers) but can buy them by giving hp to the good guys. I did use it a lot this fight, mainly because I didn't give this particular CF battlesuit sufficient capabilities, so as a seriously major BBEG I was more willing to let him use them. Speaking of which, regarding his powers he does in fact have nearly plot-level technopathy (Its POSSIBLE to resist, but its unlikely). Optic attacking him is basically like Wolverine attacking Magneto. However, what Optic wanted to do was really, really cool so I let him spend an hp to negate it. Its unlikely that Optic CAN get good enough to challenge CF directly techwise. In fact, probably should give Optic an HP for a complication every time in the future that he has to face CF. What Optic CAN do to improve his technopathy though is trade in a bunch of the ranks of Datalink (your range is like to the moon...but you cant target stuf you can't otherwise perceive), for ranks in Quickness: Limited To Computer Actions, which costs 1pp/3 ranks. 2 or 3 pp in that will make you much more powerful, since computer stuff technically takes quite a bit of time. Also make sure your computer skill is maxed, and maybe even up int although its pricy.

 

[Fangor the Fierce]

So, any reply to my question for the DM?

 

[Jemal]

Matt - Thanks for Adressing that. I understand Elric's very knowledgable about the system, but sometimes I have to hear things 'from the horses mouth', if you will.
It's nice to know my feelings of inadequacy in the face of a superior force were well founded.

Optic attacking him is basically like Wolverine attacking Magneto.

And, just as Wolvie keeps going after Mags, Optic has found his nemesis.

However, what Optic wanted to do was really, really cool so I let him spend an hp to negate it. Its unlikely that Optic CAN get good enough to challenge CF directly techwise. In fact, probably should give Optic an HP for a complication every time in the future that he has to face CF. What Optic CAN do to improve his technopathy though is trade in a bunch of the ranks of Datalink (your range is like to the moon...but you cant target stuf you can't otherwise perceive), for ranks in Quickness: Limited To Computer Actions, which costs 1pp/3 ranks. 2 or 3 pp in that will make you much more powerful, since computer stuff technically takes quite a bit of time. Also make sure your computer skill is maxed, and maybe even up int although its pricy.

Well, thanks for the cool vote. I thought so too.

Hmm, on that note, I had a few questions for you... I've been thinking of making some changes to Optic, but we have yet to (or at least I have yet to, I admit I missed a portion of the campaign) gain any PP with which I could make any changes. SO, two questions on that front.
A: are we going to be gaining any powerpoints in the near future?
B: Regardless, would you be ok with me making a few alterations to Optic as he 'rethinks' his approach to the situation? Either through Re-training, or redesigning some of his tech?
There's a lot of stuff that seems cool, and/or a good idea at character creation but when you get into the actual playing, it either doesn't make sense, or doesn't get used at all.. (I quote your opinion of me being able to datalink with the moon as an example. )

 

[DM_Matt]

So, any reply to my question for the DM?

I'd think it would have more dramatic impact if she died for real, but if most of you disagree, then perhaps we can do that.

 

[Victim]

I don't have a problem with her dying, but there's no IC reason not to at least attempt some extreme measures.

 

[DM_Matt]

I don't have a problem with her dying, but there's no IC reason not to at least attempt some extreme measures.

Well, perhaps. Of course, if it is better that she die for real (with a big funeral and controversy about the mission and the emotional impact on the PC, etc.), its easy to just say that Wren's ring can't raise the dead. Surely someone among his people has tried it before and has determined whether or not it can be done.

Now to another matter: Advancement.

Everyone is awarded 2pp.

I was thinking though about using gradual PL upping, allowing increases of one of the four capped traits plus skills at 3,6,9,12, and 15 pp awarded. But this also reminds me that not everyone is at the same level of pp. Would those who were here longer and thus have a few more pp have a problem with setting the entire group to PL 11.4 / 172pp ?