Superheroes of the Trust OOC Thread II

[Elric]

Since we're not distracting Control Freak with a fight, he might be able to override any further self destructs.

At least CF's staggered. We did the best we could.

 

[Victim]

And things go from bad to worse.

 

[Shayuri]

I dont' expect it to mean much, but I'm upset.

I'd just like to go on record and say that.

 

[DM_Matt]

I dont' expect it to mean much, but I'm upset.

I'd just like to go on record and say that.

Well, I am sorry you're upset. Really I am. I stand by that ruling though. I admit I wasn't 100% sure on it, so before doing it I asked Elric off the boards if he thought it was a legit use of counter, and he agreed with me. I just don't know what else to say other than the fact that I think its within descriptors for his hammer to counter.

 

[Shayuri]

My objection is that it seems to extend the use of the "force" descriptor to an unreasonable (IMO, of course) extent. Technically speaking, ANY transfer of energy involves "exerting force." Fire exerts force on molecules. Electricity is just electrons exerting force. If you define force that broadly, you have a Nullify that can act on basically every physical power in the book.

Of course, since the power level of the villains seems kind of arbitrarily high, maybe he paid the points per level to have a Nullify that can do that.

 

[Elric]

My objection is that it seems to extend the use of the "force" descriptor to an unreasonable (IMO, of course) extent. Technically speaking, ANY transfer of energy involves "exerting force." Fire exerts force on molecules. Electricity is just electrons exerting force. If you define force that broadly, you have a Nullify that can act on basically every physical power in the book.

Of course, since the power level of the villains seems kind of arbitrarily high, maybe he paid the points per level to have a Nullify that can do that.

Sorry, I sort of feel responsible for this because if I had said it was unreasonable Matt wouldn't have done it. I wasn't sure but I did say it was a reasonable use of Countering and my reasoning was partly based on Ultimate Power (here's the entry for Telekinesis).

Telekinesis affects motion, so it can potentially counter any other Move Object effect, preventing someone else from moving something. Likewise, other Move Object effects may be able to counter
Telekinesis; for example, Magnetic Control could counter an attempt to move a metallic object with Telekinesis.

As a general rule, Telekinesis should not be able to counter things like general attack or movement effects without taking Nullify as an Alternate Power or additional power. Likewise, using Telekinesis to actively deflect attacks should be considered an additional Deflect Alternate Power rather than an automatic capability of the power.

This may be pushing (no pun intended) the Nullify (Force stuff) too far. But even if that were the case, Battle Bunny could presumably have used Extra Effort to power stunt to acquire a suitable enough power (a 1 pp/rank Nullify for to counter the Telekinesis, which would have led to the exact result that occurred, except that he wouldn't have been able to surge and KO Optic, having already used Extra Effort (this would be a fairly significant difference in the path of the fight, though).

Wren may yet interpose on the Killer Bee attack, as I think he's in range to do so (and he's much more resistant to this attack at this point than Viridian). If it gets ret-conned that Bunny had to use Extra Effort to acquire a suitable enough power to counter the telekinesis (this I think is definitely reasonable given the descriptors involve) and Wren interposes on this attack for Viridian we'd still be in the fight at the base, admittedly probably not for long owing to being outnumbered and seriously outgunned (potential solution: Viridian Mind Controls Killer Bee and uses his disgusting offense against them).

 

[Shayuri]

Reading that paragraph you quoted, I don't see how it applies. It specifically refers to the use of Telekinesis (a Move Object power) to counter other Move Object effects, like Magnetic Control, or Gravity Control or what have you. Basically the gist is: "If you can move it telekinetically, you can try to counter someone else moving it some other way." And vice versa.

Nullify (Force) isn't a Move Object effect. It doesn't seem relevant, therefore, to include a rules argument that is purely based on opposing Move Object effects.

I also object to the idea that anyone with a Nullify power can just "power stunt" to get around the limits of their ability to deal with specific situations. Doesn't that kind of kick the whole point of having limitations in the nutsack?

"I am Firestar, I affect heat and fire...but...uh, you use lightning, so I'll power stunt with Extra Effort. Yay!"

I'll be honest. I don't expect any of this to change anything's that's happened in-game. I just want the basis of my objection, on this particular event, to be clear.

 

[Elric]

I also object to the idea that anyone with a Nullify power can just "power stunt" to get around the limits of their ability to deal with specific situations. Doesn't that kind of kick the whole point of having limitations in the nutsack?

"I am Firestar, I affect heat and fire...but...uh, you use lightning, so I'll power stunt with Extra Effort. Yay!"

There's definitely a tension between the idea that a Power Stunt should be something your character could legitimately have as an AP and the idea that a Power Stunt represents your character being able to do something kind of off the wall that wouldn't be suitable for you to have as a general ability. For example, Wolverine's Adamantium Claws probably do not merit the Affects Insubstantial power feat but if Wolverine power stunted Affects Insubstantial for an attack because his claws were "dense enough" to affect a particular insubstantial opponent, I don't think that would feel so out there. If Wolverine tried to power stunt Autofire Affects Insubstantial claws to hit a bunch of insubstantial opponents, though, that would feel pretty out there. I think it's a matter of degree.

Force powers and Telekinesis are definitely fairly close thematically. Think about Jean Grey having Telekinesis (usually Range: Perception) and Force Constructs and [Force] Blast and Force Field, likely in the same array.

 

[Shayuri]

I really disagree. I think that really removes so many things from the game. Let me explain my reasoning:

First, if power stunting is so flexible, then hero points become a "catchall" and the Luck feat becomes the most valuable feat in the game; to the point that it occludes almost any other use of a power feat. Example:

I am EctoSpasm, the spectral defender! My telekinesis takes the form of wispy strands of ectoplasm that can grab and punch. Because they are solid and gaseous, and ghostly, I take the Affects Insubstantial power feat. 90% of the time, this feat does nothing for me, because insubstantial foes are rare. But then we face Nocturne, the Perfidous Poltergeist! Finally it is my time to shine!

...but the Wolverine decides his claws "are dense enough" and...why did I take that feat? I could have had a Hero Point that will do the same thing, effectively, and will still be useful when I'm not facing ghosts.

Secondly, it makes powers that are limited by descriptor FAR more valuable than they would ordinarily be. The whole point of powers that are limited by descriptor is that...they are limited by descriptor. Why should I pay for a Nullify that affects a broad range of effects, when I can buy a more limited Nullify, and just power stunt it as needed?

Edit - That's great for Jean Grey. Who's not Jean Grey? Me. And "fairly close thematically" is one of those overly broad classifications I was talking about. Light is "fairly close thematically" to x-rays and gamma rays...does that mean Dazzler can irradiate the city?

 

[Elric]

Luck is already probably the best feat in the game, thanks to Improved Roll, not buying off fatigue from Power Stunt.

Think about how many times characters have Power stunted in this campaign: Wren (for Area Teleport, which he's done twice), Star (for Area Strike, done once), Hope (for a fire spell to kill Oni, done once).

I think that's it. Instant-Duration Power Stunts are just not an overwhelmingly useful thing to do most of the time. Instant Duration Power Stunts are one-use: you pay a price for the flexibility. The example with Hope is her Power Stunting an ability it would never make sense for her to have as an AP. Wren's is a "rescue entire party" effect and Star's was done to attack over a dozen enemies.