D&D 5E Supplemental books: Why the compulsion to buy and use, but complain about it?

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Which only works if nobody is going to attack the player for leaving, and the DM is fine with the rest of the players leaving because that player did or even that player making a counter-proposal. The more autocratic the DM is, the less right he has to complain about independent action from the players, who are indeed independent actors. When you start harassing people for leaving, like you did Hussar, then you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Yeah, if a player quits or threatens to quit and the result of that threat is to get the rest of the people to side with him instead of the DM, yeah, color me unimpressed. And I did not harass Hussar about it, I explained how it looked from the outside looking in.

But that doesn't mean that I think that the DM is often at fault if a player's needs are not met. From my experience, and I can only talk from my experience, most DMs are reasonable, most players are reasonable, and the conflicts tend to be when one of them is unreasonable. Usually it's a player because except for a few very controlling DMs, most DMs go out of their way to make the game enjoyable for their players. DMs tend to be more invested in their campaign and are actually working to make the campaign better, players sometimes come from a group of people who play D&D more casually than DMs, or are more particular about how they spend their time, or whose idea of better is doing things their way.
 

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Elf Witch

First Post
Welcome to the real world. The tyranny of the minority is a common theme these days. Fortunately, not typically so much at the gaming table though (although it does happen). Your example pretty much sucks and I would have told that guy what a butthead he was. You find jerks everywhere, sometimes even at the gaming table.

Tell your roommate to "Game on!". :D

I think that assumption (bias) is present in some posters, but not all.

But there are some posts - I've pointed to a few - which try to reply to those who obviously don't share that assumption from a premise of the truth of the assumption. Which is basically pointless: eg if someone is explaining how, as s/he approaches the game, the GM is first among equals for setting content creation, it is pointless to begin a reply to that person from the premise that the GM has unilateral power in setting creation!

What you describe in your example doesn't seem to me to have much to do with player "entitlement" vs GM "authority" at all. The GM wasn't trying to restrict things by way of exercise of her authority as GM: at least as you tell the story, she was motivated by mechanical rather than world-building considerations, mostly her inexperience with the PF mechanics.

As my 4e game reaches its conclusion, my group is gradually warming up to start a new game with a new system. It will be our first time playing this system together, and I have expressly said that, because of our relative inexperience, I woud like to keep PC builds fairly vanilla.

To be honest, for me there is a degree of tension between (i) "K" being a friend of your GMing friend, and (ii) "K" wrecking your GMing friend's game. "K" doesn't seem like a particularly good friend, if he's trying to bully your friend into doing something she sincerely doesn't believe she is qualified to do.

But to my mind, at least, this is not very analogous to a GM saying "No tieflings because in my world civilised folk kill them on sight".

I have noticed a lot more me me me type players in the last 15 years then I used to see. But then I see a lot more of this everywhere. The whole my rights come first instead of my rights stop where your rights start.

I feel that it is up to everybody players and DM alike to make the game fun for everyone at the table. And sometimes that means not getting exactly what you want. Sometimes it means stepping back and letting another player have the glory or letting the DM have some fun too.

Like I said my fun as a DM is to build worlds that make players want to come and explore and not feel that they have done this a dozens time before. A lot of us have been playing since the 70s and the same old vanilla game world is dull. I got burned out on haughty elves, Scottish dwarves, half orcs with angst. So when I built my world I tried something different. And so far most of the players who played in it really loved it.

I think making thematic choices in world building is also a for of DM authority unless your group does shred world building which i have rarely seen in my 40 something years of playing. Players may add elements with their characters but for the most part the actual building of the world was left to the DMs.

In my homebrew tieflings would be killed on sight. They are hated they served as the shock troops for Tiamat and her demon and devil generals. They killed, raped, tortured their way across the countryside. They showed no mercy. The ones that did not get off world before all the passageways between worlds closed were hunted down and killed. It would be very hard to play a tiefling and not get yourself and the party killed. As the DM I have made this choice, and this was before 4E anyway and they were not a core class, and I think the players should accept it they after all agreed to it upfront it was not a surprise.

I personally am not fond of kitchen sink setting as a player or a DM I prefer a world that is more defined. I will play a kitchen sink world but I am not sure I would DM one. Hussar said he tried Planescape and it wasnot to his liking so no one would bat an eye if as a player he says I won't play in a Planescape world. But if a DM says things like this then it seems it gets judged differently. Karinsdad has said he does not want dragonborn in his game because they are monsters in his world and some people seem to think he is wrong for doing that. We all have our dislikes and the DM should be allowed to have some too. As long as the DM is upfront about it then the players need to decide play or not. But he is not a bad DM for doing it.

In our group we have different DMs and players for the most part know what we will DM. My games tend to be heavy on political intrigue, heroic deeds, a lot of gray not much black and white. I have no desire to run a game for a bunch of morally corrupt PCs or a hack and slash dungeon crawl. Another DM tends to run your traditional DnD sandbox he allows a lot of splatbooks the world is black and white, he lets the powergamers powergame to their hearts content. His games generally last around six months and is the perfect game to try out new classes and races. My roommate runs adventure paths and modules. We have a Shadowrun DM and a Hero System DM.

And for the most part we know what we are getting into as players. There is already an implied social contract in place if you say yes to a DM game.


K is outside of gaming a decent fellow and a supportive and loyal friend. In gaming he can be a pain because he can be set in his ways and just can't seem to grasp it is just a game.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
DM: "I don't allow Tieflings as PCs."
Player: "Why not?"
DM: "Sorry, but it is a campaign element and if I gave you the reason, it would ruin part of the surprise of the game."
Player: "Ok, that's cool."

It's not that the DM cannot justify his reasons. I suspect that most DM's often do. But sometimes, there are hidden currents in a campaign and the DM does not want to hand out any hints about it. That is totally reasonable. Saying "sorry, but you just do not know why" is a perfectly valid response.

Wrong spin. It's not "you don't need to know why". That's shutting down communication and I would call it a jerk move. Telling them "I've got plans for tieflings that would make having a PC tiefling problematic. I can't go into details at this point." would be much better. You don't need to disclose full details, but by putting it in the terms I'm using, you're more likely to get understanding than you will with stonewalling.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Umm, Mistwell, that bolded part there is one example where you have claimed that it is inappropriate for a player to bow out of a campaign he isn't interested in. How is this not pretty one true wayism?

If it is one true wayism to say you should have fun with your friends at karaoke rather than leave in a sulk because you don't like the music, then guilty as charged. Since that is the example you bolded.

I am trying to explain that in my experience, if you have a great DM, this issue doesn't ever come up, because things will be fun regardless. I am not telling you what to do for your game, I am trying to explain why it's an alien perspective, from my experience.

You are making a connection here that gaming is about hanging out with your friends and goofing around.

No for that it was Karaoke, in response to you saying the music sucks. See this is why analogies are terrible for topics we all understand - I am sorry I ever mentioned Karaoke. It does not help with communication to use analogies when none are needed.

For those of whom this isn't necessarily true (say someone who plays with people that are "gaming friends" like people you've met at an FLGS, or, in my case, a purely online game) then that criteria doesn't really follow.

I never said it did. I am however suggesting you might want to game with actual friends in person more - make it more of a goal, if this is happening to you a lot. And if you say "I can't" I am going to say "you should try harder to make it happen". Gaming with actual friends is a lot of fun, and it makes these issues better, most of the time.
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Wrong spin. It's not "you don't need to know why". That's shutting down communication and I would call it a jerk move. Telling them "I've got plans for tieflings that would make having a PC tiefling problematic. I can't go into details at this point." would be much better. You don't need to disclose full details, but by putting it in the terms I'm using, you're more likely to get understanding than you will with stonewalling.

Did I use the phrase "don't need to know"?

Wrong spin, wrong words, wrong English. Lot of people here tend to misread what other people write. You knew what I meant.
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
]
My roommate wanted to run a Pathfinder adventure path she has never played or DMed Pathfinder. So after spending time on the Pazio forums and reading the material she decided that this first Pathfinder game was going to be core only. Her reasoning was she wanted to be more familiar as a DM how the basic rules work before adding in splatbooks and rules options.

Her are two conversations that happened.

DM I know you have had your heart set on playing a witch for a long time. But it is not core and I really want to get a grasp on the rules.

Me That is a bummer and yeah I am disappointed (which I was, I am been jonesing to play a witch for over a year) But I understand and since I have been wanting to play a paladin maybe that is what I want to play.

DM you should take a look at the paladins from Chelix they get to be LG and summon and control demons and I think you would enjoy that challenge.


The other conversation

DM core only

K I want to play a gunslinger. I have been reading up on Pathfinder and decided that was the first character I would want to play.

DM But it is not core and I am not comfortable using firearms and gunpowder in this game. Goes on the explain why she wants to run core only.

K sigh look everything I have read says gunpowder is not unbalancing to the setting. Pathfinder is just 3.75 so this should not be an issue for you.

DM But it is an issue for me. I want this to be core if I say yes to you then I have to say yes to everyone else and I just want my first time DMing Pathfinder to be a little less hard. What other concepts would you be interested in.

K none I don't know if I want to play if I can't play a gunslinger.

DM How about this you start with a core class and as the game goes on and I get more comfortable we will revisit this and maybe you can bring in a gunslinger later on.

K I don't know.

Any way K dragged his feet and eventually made a cleric. The game lasted two sessions because K was just such a pain in the rear over this. And since he was a friend the DM didn't want to cause friction so she took the easy way out and made up an excuse that she couldn't DM for awhile. So another DM stepped up and ran a 3.5 game and no it didn't have gunpowder even though he allows most splatbooks.

There were four other players at that table who got screwed over by the tyranny of the minority.

That is the kind of player BS I am talking about when I say entitled. And I think he was unreasonable and selfish.

I have three problems with this.

1, you call it tyranny of the minority. However you also describe the player as "dragging his feet" could that not also be interpreted as he was trying to find something else he wanted to play... and could not. you then say he was a pain for the two sessions, if he is playing a cleric when he didn't want to, and it was apparent, can you blame him, after all you guys convinced him to play something he didn't want to.

2, There where 5 players, so the DM had to learn and adapt to 5 classes, I don't see the difference between learning and adapting to gunslinger, witch, psion, Summoner, and Magus or learning and adapting to Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, and Sorcerer. The reason given "I just want to learn the system" feels very shallow to me, when he has to learn to run anyway... Pathfinder adventure paths and worlds take place with classes in mind, so if the AP had gunslingers and witches, then there is 0 he has to do different to have them or a ranger and druid in the party.

3, you say "That is the kind of player BS I am talking about when I say entitled. And I think he was unreasonable and selfish" but do you really think your friends acted this way on purpose, or if you looked from his point of view do you think he was trying to make the best of a bad situation, and he feels he was wronged?
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
Wrong spin. It's not "you don't need to know why". That's shutting down communication and I would call it a jerk move. Telling them "I've got plans for tieflings that would make having a PC tiefling problematic. I can't go into details at this point." would be much better. You don't need to disclose full details, but by putting it in the terms I'm using, you're more likely to get understanding than you will with stonewalling.
[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] and I have disagreed a lot in this thread, but I think his way would work fine if said in a friendly way.
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
Yeah, if a player quits or threatens to quit and the result of that threat is to get the rest of the people to side with him instead of the DM, yeah, color me unimpressed.

So you want to be more powerful then the other players; you want to dictate what the group is playing without recourse from the players. We're people coming of our free will to spend our leisure time together; I see no reason to give you that extra power. If we as a group want to play something else, you as the DM don't have the right to compel us otherwise.

DMs tend to be more invested in their campaign and are actually working to make the campaign better, players sometimes come from a group of people who play D&D more casually than DMs, or are more particular about how they spend their time, or whose idea of better is doing things their way.

And somehow playing casual D&D is bad. Somehow, somehow, being particular about how they spend their time is bad.

And "whose idea of better is doing things their way" is just an amazing line from someone who has posted post after post about how one of the people in the game has an absolute right to do things their way. (It's also a bit weird; generally "your way" and "what you think is better" go hand in hand. If not, one or the other should be evaluated.)
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
The reason given "I just want to learn the system" feels very shallow to me, when he has to learn to run anyway...

It doesn't feel shallow to me.

Game systems are designed to work pretty darn well out of the box. It's often the splat books that can break a game system.

I can easily understanding a rookie DM feeling overwhelmed with the game in front of her, let alone the game in front of her plus a bunch of other stuff.


See, this is where I think some of the disconnect lies. As a player, I bend over backwards to make things as easy as possible for a brand new DM (we have a brand new DM in our current campaign). I do not try to argue for me to play a PC that the DM is uncomfortable with. I also don't say, "Well, the DM has to learn 5 PC classes anyway, it might as well be 3 from the core book and 2 from these other books". Who knows what other additional rules and baggage comes along with a PC class out of a splat book?

Sorry, this will be one more area where you and I disagree (big surprise :-S). Players should be helping new DMs, not hindering them. JMO.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
And somehow playing casual D&D is bad. Somehow, somehow, being particular about how they spend their time is bad.

Playing casual D&D is not bad. Playing casual D&D and trying to force the game into your mold, not so good. Being particular about how one spends their time is not bad. Being so particular about how someone spends their time that they threaten to quit a game if it is not done their way, not so good. It's usually not the DM with these particular types of poor behaviors. If DMs have bad behaviors (which some DMs do), they tend to be of a different variety.
 

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