Surprise rounds and Hunter's Quarry

[deleteme123456]

There are certain advantages to quick draw, and the surprise round certainly makes it worth its while. If you want a house rule on the quarry, you might have it require a stealth check or something to be able to do it and not have them notice. Or you could do something like give the ranger a bonus to initiative instead of a surprise round if he's hidden... often going at the start of the first turn is as good as a surprise round.

 

[WalterKovacs]

On suprise as a single round:

The quickdraw feat is much more useful, especially when the party is suprised, but you are not. Also, it makes stealth a bit more important, since you need to get into position to have a suprise round that the melee guys can take advantage of it. There are a number of charge based encounter and daily powers that melee characters can take to get more options during suprise rounds.

On the subject of suprise rounds ... I've had a couple situations where the players have been able to suprise the monsters. A couple of monsters have been slain outright before having a chance to act thanks to back to back rogue attacks, both of which were merely at-will powers (deft strike during suprise round and sly flourish the first round of combat). On the other side, I've seen a fighter drop before he had a single action because of back to back volleys from the monsters who got the drop on him. A suprise round, even in 4e, still has a chance at having a big effect on the encounter, and making it a full round would only make it an even bigger deal.

 

[CapnZapp]

I hear what you're saying, but I can't understand it.

Most attacks with a punch are standard actions. You wouldn't get any more of those with the "full surprise round" suggestion.

What you would get however, is an end to the (in my eyes completely arbitrary) nerfing of melee combatants and people without quickdraw.

(Quickdraw is more important if you only have a single action than if you get a full round's worth of actions, right, Walter?)

It would be interesting to see if any of you who have replied so far would like to take a shot at explaining what's so valuable about retaining the "on action surprise round" rule from another angle than the "it's too lethal" one.

 

[Pbartender]

When starting a combat if the players have surprise on a group of goblins(just used for example) you would roll initiative and then resolve the surprise round based on those rolls. During this surprise round the players get one action of any type (standard, move or minor) and then normal combat starts.

If the players didn't have their weapons out would they have to use a minor action during the surprise round to pull them out?

If the ranger for instance did have his bow out would he have to choose between shooting at the goblin (a standard action) or marking it as his quarry (a minor action) during the surprise round.

Another side of this is if the ranger snuck up on the group of goblins and the goblins were unaware of him being there. Would he be able to designate his quarry and then attack?

Two words...

Action. Point.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, if you're being surprised, your first actions in combat will be a full round's worth.
However, if you're doing the surprising, wouldn't you already have your weapon drawn?

 

[Jack99]

Two words...

Action. Point.

Two words:
You can't

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION
✦ During Your Turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

 

[Pbartender]

Two words:
You can't

That's what I get for posting without a rulebook handy... Never mind, then.

 

[Oni]

A ranger or warlock should be able to designate their quarry or curse before initiating the surprise round of combat, the rules do not actually disallow this as some here are claiming.

Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

It doesn't actually say that a creature is aware of any condition it is under, it says it is aware of any condition that is inflicted by a power.

Both curse and quarry are not powers, they are class features.

Some class features are treated as powers, however all class features that are treated as such are specifically pointed out as being treated as powers and given power style write ups, curse and quarry has neither of these.

And to cover all the bases. The mark from Combat Challenge needs be applied via a power, thus its effects are known as per a creature knowing the conditions resultant from a power, alleviating any concerns of diminished effectiveness.



Let me ask you this. Joe the guard is just standing around as a ranger is sneaking up on him. Does he suddenly have the epiphany "OMG I'm gonna extra damage" and raise the alarm when a hunter's quarry gets used on him?

No that's dumb, and I imagine why the rules have been written as they are, in that curse and quarry are very specifically not powers.