Swordsage, how to go about it
- Thread starter Hexer
- Start date
Doesnt look bad Dandu
With a woodelf Swordsage I think I'm going for a kinda Tribal Warrior thing and my idea is focussing mainly on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw Disciplines. Sound good so far?
Was also thinking about Weapons to use and would like either axe (probably either two handed or TWF with one handed axes) or spiked chain maybe. Any suggestions for weapons that will work well with the above discipline combination?
I will try to make this char basically a stealthy, kinda ninja thing on one side and a mean melee fighter on the other side. So maybe some Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind would be a good idea, too?
I came to the same conclusion of the Shadow Sun Ninja PRC not being worth it but the Bloodclaw Master looks like it could be interesting. Thoughts?
With a woodelf Swordsage I think I'm going for a kinda Tribal Warrior thing and my idea is focussing mainly on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw Disciplines. Sound good so far?
Was also thinking about Weapons to use and would like either axe (probably either two handed or TWF with one handed axes) or spiked chain maybe. Any suggestions for weapons that will work well with the above discipline combination?
I will try to make this char basically a stealthy, kinda ninja thing on one side and a mean melee fighter on the other side. So maybe some Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind would be a good idea, too?
I came to the same conclusion of the Shadow Sun Ninja PRC not being worth it but the Bloodclaw Master looks like it could be interesting. Thoughts?
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Shadow Hand / Tiger Claw is a good combo, and a swordsage can really afford a bit from everywhere. Diamond Mind is great in general, and even Desert Wind and Stone Dragon have some very nice maneuvers.
Setting Sun...it's one of my favorite disciplines, but it was poorly done. The flavor is all about little folks using a giant's own momentum against him, but in actuality, all the throw maneuvers still use the core trip mechanic. Yeah, you can use dex instead of str, but you're also still limited to tripping things up to one size bigger than you and they still get their massive size bonus on strength checks, so it doesn't work as intended at all. If I make a setting sun based character, I make him as big and strong as possible, in direct contrast to how it's supposed to work. I think Counter Charge is worth learning (it is NOT a trip maneuver, size modifiers should not apply, nor should limits on what you can affect), the Step of the Wind stance is great in games where the DM uses terrain, and the ~level 5 stance and maneuvers to move out of turn or teleport are handy, and fool's strike is super sexy, but otherwise I would ignore the discipline completely if not optimizing your trip check.
Weapons: Whatever you pick, pick something you can get Weapon Focus for via level 1 swordsage, otherwise you're wasting a class feature. Using a discipline's stuff has no requirement that you use its key weapon, so don't let that limit you. As long as the weapon you pick is on one of the swordsage disciplines' lists, you're good. I suspect as a ninja-like build, you'll be relying on high dex and shadow hand stances, so I suggest you look into Shadow Blade, but that requires you to use a SH weapon, and again, spiked chain is the only one that's actually decent (short sword is the next best choice). I would avoid TWF, your BAB already is mediocre, and your stats will be spread thin, and TWF is extremely costly in feats, which is one of your biggest problems already. Just use mostly standard action strikes and skirmish around with tumble.
Setting Sun: As I said.
Diamond Mind: One of the best disciplines, especially the "X Nightmare Blade" line (not so much Sapphire, but it's only level 1, so can't expect much) and the Insightful Strikes. Emerald Razor is great with a 2H weapon and power attack, mediocre otherwise. Don't bother with the save replacers except for Mind Over Body. The 1st level stance is bad (aside from the obvious reasons, you can get half its insight bonus to AC against all enemies from a 5000 gp iuon stone), the 3rd level stance is cool but usually impractical, the 5th level stance is amazing and you should absolutely take it, and the 8th level can be good if you have a lot of counters, but is easily skippable.
Desert Wind: Don't bother with any of the blasting maneuvers except possibly Fan the Flames and Ring of Fire. Distracting Ember, the boosts to add fire damage to your weapon (and the 2nd level one to just make it purely fire), the two charge maneuvers, the 1st level stance, and Leaping Flame are probably the best parts of DW, but the only one I think any swordsage should have is Distracting Ember. Desert Tempest could be fun if you can make high DC tumbles to move at full speed and face lots of enemies.
Bloodclaw: I'm not a fan of it, I'd just stay in Swordsage.
Setting Sun...it's one of my favorite disciplines, but it was poorly done. The flavor is all about little folks using a giant's own momentum against him, but in actuality, all the throw maneuvers still use the core trip mechanic. Yeah, you can use dex instead of str, but you're also still limited to tripping things up to one size bigger than you and they still get their massive size bonus on strength checks, so it doesn't work as intended at all. If I make a setting sun based character, I make him as big and strong as possible, in direct contrast to how it's supposed to work. I think Counter Charge is worth learning (it is NOT a trip maneuver, size modifiers should not apply, nor should limits on what you can affect), the Step of the Wind stance is great in games where the DM uses terrain, and the ~level 5 stance and maneuvers to move out of turn or teleport are handy, and fool's strike is super sexy, but otherwise I would ignore the discipline completely if not optimizing your trip check.
Weapons: Whatever you pick, pick something you can get Weapon Focus for via level 1 swordsage, otherwise you're wasting a class feature. Using a discipline's stuff has no requirement that you use its key weapon, so don't let that limit you. As long as the weapon you pick is on one of the swordsage disciplines' lists, you're good. I suspect as a ninja-like build, you'll be relying on high dex and shadow hand stances, so I suggest you look into Shadow Blade, but that requires you to use a SH weapon, and again, spiked chain is the only one that's actually decent (short sword is the next best choice). I would avoid TWF, your BAB already is mediocre, and your stats will be spread thin, and TWF is extremely costly in feats, which is one of your biggest problems already. Just use mostly standard action strikes and skirmish around with tumble.
Setting Sun: As I said.
Diamond Mind: One of the best disciplines, especially the "X Nightmare Blade" line (not so much Sapphire, but it's only level 1, so can't expect much) and the Insightful Strikes. Emerald Razor is great with a 2H weapon and power attack, mediocre otherwise. Don't bother with the save replacers except for Mind Over Body. The 1st level stance is bad (aside from the obvious reasons, you can get half its insight bonus to AC against all enemies from a 5000 gp iuon stone), the 3rd level stance is cool but usually impractical, the 5th level stance is amazing and you should absolutely take it, and the 8th level can be good if you have a lot of counters, but is easily skippable.
Desert Wind: Don't bother with any of the blasting maneuvers except possibly Fan the Flames and Ring of Fire. Distracting Ember, the boosts to add fire damage to your weapon (and the 2nd level one to just make it purely fire), the two charge maneuvers, the 1st level stance, and Leaping Flame are probably the best parts of DW, but the only one I think any swordsage should have is Distracting Ember. Desert Tempest could be fun if you can make high DC tumbles to move at full speed and face lots of enemies.
Bloodclaw: I'm not a fan of it, I'd just stay in Swordsage.
How about going for a two handed weapon like a greataxe?
How well does a large weapon like this work when Tigerclaw seems to favour TWF with a lot of its manouvers? The greataxe IS a favoured weapon of Tigerclaw though....
Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon though
How well does a large weapon like this work when Tigerclaw seems to favour TWF with a lot of its manouvers? The greataxe IS a favoured weapon of Tigerclaw though....
Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon though
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StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Tiger Claw also has a lot of jump-and-strike maneuvers that work best with a single strong weapon, you can have a lot of tiger claw w/o touching the TWF stuff (though Wolf Fang Strike is the only level 1 maneuver or stance w/o any maneuvers known required, which is annoying; both the level 2 maneuvers otherwise can be entry points).
Soaring Raptor Strike
Death from Above
Claw at the Moon
All the Rabid ___ Strike ones
Swooping Dragon Strike
The level 9 maneuver
And that's just the strikes.
Soaring Raptor Strike
Death from Above
Claw at the Moon
All the Rabid ___ Strike ones
Swooping Dragon Strike
The level 9 maneuver
And that's just the strikes.
What do you think about this selection of known maneuvers and stances for a level 2 Swordsage (we will start at lvl2)?:
lvl1:
6 maneuvers known:
- (SH) shadow blade technique
- (SH) clinging shadow strike
- (DW) burning blade
- (DW) Wind Stride
- (SD) charging minotaur
- (SS) mighty throw
1 stances known:
- (SH) child of shadow
lvl2:
+1 maneuver:
- (DW) distracting ember
+1 stance:
- (SH) island of blades
No Tigerclaw in there yet since I'm still limited to 1st level stuff (2nd level at character level3), Shadow hand ate up the stances and of the 2 Tigerclaw maneuvers that are 1st lvl, one isnt for me as I'm using a two handed weapon (wolf fang strike) and the one that would actually be usefull I cant take because its the only one with a prerequisite.... (sudden leap).
The focus on Shadow Hand and Tigerclaw will probably be more dominant when I get more levels
lvl1:
6 maneuvers known:
- (SH) shadow blade technique
- (SH) clinging shadow strike
- (DW) burning blade
- (DW) Wind Stride
- (SD) charging minotaur
- (SS) mighty throw
1 stances known:
- (SH) child of shadow
lvl2:
+1 maneuver:
- (DW) distracting ember
+1 stance:
- (SH) island of blades
No Tigerclaw in there yet since I'm still limited to 1st level stuff (2nd level at character level3), Shadow hand ate up the stances and of the 2 Tigerclaw maneuvers that are 1st lvl, one isnt for me as I'm using a two handed weapon (wolf fang strike) and the one that would actually be usefull I cant take because its the only one with a prerequisite.... (sudden leap).
The focus on Shadow Hand and Tigerclaw will probably be more dominant when I get more levels
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Wind Stride sucks. Its 1 round and will not stack with boots of S&S.
Clinging Shadow Strike sucks, the save DC will be pitiful for a very small effect.
Charging Minotaur is interesting, but you have to win a str check for the maneuver to do anything at all, so it's not bloody likely to happen, especially if you're not going the "big, high strength" route.
Your partner's a ninja, he can't sudden strike from flanking, so island of blades is largely worthless to the both of you.
I would get Wolf Fang Strike (you can't ready all your maneuvers anyway, so it's ok to have a dud) and Sudden Leap, and swap WFS out at level 4.
Clinging Shadow Strike sucks, the save DC will be pitiful for a very small effect.
Charging Minotaur is interesting, but you have to win a str check for the maneuver to do anything at all, so it's not bloody likely to happen, especially if you're not going the "big, high strength" route.
Your partner's a ninja, he can't sudden strike from flanking, so island of blades is largely worthless to the both of you.
I would get Wolf Fang Strike (you can't ready all your maneuvers anyway, so it's ok to have a dud) and Sudden Leap, and swap WFS out at level 4.
Attributes so far are:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 12
(36 pointbuy)
My Strength is not so bad and I guess I'll probably use points from level advancement for Dex first...
Ok, you pointed out quite a few things I wasnt really aware of.... I'll think about it and do some changes.
Can you actually ready the same 4 maneuvers (on lvl1 or 2) again after they are expended by use of adaptive style? I dont have the book in front of me right now but I seem to remember it was worded specifically to swap out readied maneuvers.
Wolf fang strike really is of no use at all to me while using a twohanded weapon, correct?
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 12
(36 pointbuy)
My Strength is not so bad and I guess I'll probably use points from level advancement for Dex first...
Ok, you pointed out quite a few things I wasnt really aware of.... I'll think about it and do some changes.
Can you actually ready the same 4 maneuvers (on lvl1 or 2) again after they are expended by use of adaptive style? I dont have the book in front of me right now but I seem to remember it was worded specifically to swap out readied maneuvers.
Wolf fang strike really is of no use at all to me while using a twohanded weapon, correct?
Empirate
First Post
Good advice, except Charging Minotaur can be excellent for getting out of a bind. You charge and provoke no AoOs for moving. That alone is great to get around on the battlefield.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
You can choose to ready the exact same maneuver set if you want, no rule says otherwise.
For stats, I suggest dropping cha to 8 and dex to 16. You need dex lots, charisma not so much, and swordsage really doesn't get much for charisma skills anyway. You can use WFS with a 2H weapon, the offhand attack would just be an unarmed strike (don't do this unless you have Imrpoved Unarmed Strike, though!), armor spikes, or something like that. Still seldom worth readying, but again, you can afford one or two junk maneuvers just to meet pre-reqs, and can swap them out later. Sudden Leap is very good, and it doesn't make much sense to pick it, a level 1 maneuver, up when you can start getting level 2+ maneuvers. Just get WFS and drop it at level 4 for another level 2 maneuver.
And that'd be really awesome if he were a Crusader in full plate. But he's a swordsage in light armor...with tumble as a class skill...
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