Tactical Encounter Problems

[Nemesis Destiny]

...if they come up with a good plan, even if it is kinda obvious, they shouldn't be penalized. I don't know how many encounters I have thought were going to be very challenging, only to see the players come up with a brilliant plan on the spot, and kick the crap out my bright idea...I just tip my cap and mutter under breath...."we'll see how good you do next time"

I agree, but most well-built tactical encounters should make "clustering up in a hallway/holding the choke points" a bad idea. No need to worry about punishment, since the fruits of their bad plan would do that all by itself.

Granted, holding the choke point is a valid tactical option sometimes, and can be very dramatic and exciting, but the OP was complaining that they were doing it all the time, and it was becoming boring. It should not be the default "go-to" plan of action in most encounters.

 

[Ryujin]

lots of good ideas, to be sure

let me take a different position
Why penalize the players? I mean if they come up with a good plan, even if it is kinda obvious, they shouldn't be penalized. I don't know how many encounters I have thought were going to be very challenging, only to see the players come up with a brilliant plan on the spot, and kick the crap out my bright idea...I just tip my cap and mutter under breath...."we'll see how good you do next time"

That said, to add on to the "regular advice" - in a cavern, have the bad guys retreat, and find cover. Simple and effective. Of course that only works with intelligent bad guys.

Think of it this way, if you will....

Pulling the same strategy, over and over, isn't a "good plan"; it's repetition. The heroes are the rock stars of their world, gaining more and more fame as they go. If all that they ever do is hold a choke-point then the people they go up against will come to know that, just like you know that Kiss wear big platforms and use pyrotechnics.

Reward ingenuity but, as they say, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

 

[Jhaelen]

I think it should be like this and this is the best way for it. Best way to force players to move is to toss around some zones and auras.

... and the best way to get spammers to move is to report them!

 

[TheUltramark]

Yeah, I wasn't really hitting on the "all the time" part of the querry

that said, I bet we can make a pretty long list of ways to stop the "jam the doorway" defense

1. beat em to the door
2. slide em away from the door
3. retreat further in, and make them come to you
4. have something pushing them into the room
5. use burrowers
6. use flyers
7. use traps
8. give lots of cover in the room, not so much outside it
9. widen the 'choke points'
10. use prone/stun/immobile attacks, then move through them

I came up with ten in about 24 seconds...

 

[jamesmanhattan]

Hey this is a fantastic post. Lots of great ideas.

I approached this same subject with a "clinical" mindset. If you take apart the "Dungeon Delve" book the designers went through the entire gamut of how do you make combat more interesting than just: stand next to monster, kill monster. I tried to take apart all the techniques in that book and broke them out into their most basic pieces. Nemesis Destiny covered most of them. Here's my document, hope it helps someone.
http://files.meetup.com/47098/Complications%20-%20Dungeon%20article%201.doc

 

[Nilbog]

Wow Just want to say a massive thanks to you guys, the suggestions really help, and James that document is a work of art, thank you

 

[S'mon]

Avoid single choke points. Encounter areas with multiple ingress/egress points work well, as do encounters in open areas with a couple points of interest.
Another one that works well is just to avoid narrow choke points, I defeated a party who attacked an orc tribe because to get into the tribal lair cave meant climbing a 10' high, 30' wide cliff. That was brutal.

But the best thing of all is encounters with lots of monsters possessing area-effect attacks, even if quite weak these will force the PCs to fight their way in.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Or just use a lot of artillery. If the PCs stand in the doorway they are targets that's their fault. Coming to a bunch of Kobolds may be a bad plan but not half as bad as standing there and letting them pepper you with crossbows and slings. (The best idea, of course, is to walk away).

 

[GreyICE]

Area bursts are by far the best way to consistently get your party out of choke points. Also consider zones. A zone of 'take 5 fire damage if you start your turn here' gives a huge incentive to get out of the zone.

Also have monsters send for help. Lets say that you throw a 'burning flame' burst 1 that creates a zone for 10 fire, and they retreat back down the corridor. Tell them 'you see a monster flee through another door' and start a secret timer. When the timer runs out, reinforcements arrive. Have the monsters start making barricades and otherwise taking cover from the PC attacks.

If they've cleared the room before your counter is out, they have a short rest before the next wave hits (5 minutes is less of a rule and more of a guideline for what a short rest is, say they get it) but if they haven't, well, wave 2 shows up.

After all, in real life the biggest danger of a small, well trained force against a large, dispersed force is that reinforcements show up, negating the small force's training with superior numbers.