Tactical Encounter Problems

[Crazy Jerome]

Negative reinforcement is effective and immediate. It also mimics the behaviour of creatures who see a tactical mistake someone has made, then capitalize upon it. The positive reinforcement can be introduced later, if the party are of a mind to take advanatage of it, but they never will until they're pushed out of their comfortable little foxhole.

Right. OTOH, negative reinforcement by itself starts to look stale after awhile, and people get their backs up. You whack a stubborn mule with a stick a couple of times, it might go. You whack it over and over again, eventually it just endures the whacking and does what it wants anyway.

This is why ideally you have both postive and negative reinforcement built into the same thing. The negative reinforcement knocks them out of their comfort zone and gets them to pay attention. The postive reinforcement makes them feel good about it, and means you need less reinforcement (of either kind) going forward.

It is true that for the truly habitual turtlers, they'll not even notice the carrots at first. You can get away with not using it. But the DM needs to get into the habit of including both, and when enticing turtles out of their shell, you really never know when something will click. You want that carrot already in place when they decide to go after it.

I think the main problem with changing player behavior of this nature is being too subtle. Me, confronted with extreme turtles, I'd just flat out tell them what I'm going to do: I'm going to set up situations where I can whack you with the +5 Stick of Turtle Slaying and at the same time tempt you with that Wonderous Rushing Ahead Magic Carrot. And then I'd do that. You can always back off and be subtle later.

 

[S'mon]

Sometimes using a choke point is good tactics; if the PCs are facing a group of melee-only monsters then it makes perfect sense. Conversely if the PCs are facing a group of artillery monsters backed up by a couple ranged-burst controllers then staying in the choke point is close to suicidal.

Use a variety of different encounter groups and let the players adapt their tactics to the situation. If they don't adapt they get squished.

 

[Mengu]

I'd be curious to see the player response to being pommeled in fireball formation, for a group that's really used to fighting in fireball formation. I know some players who would go, "dude those critters had bad mojo, we need more healing." And the response may expand from there in the lines of, we need more hit points and resistances, we need more/better saving throws, we need to dish out more damage, etc. without ever coming to the conclusion, "we need to push forward."

 

[domino]

I would personally be wary about making specific enemy builds to break up their formations, or whatever. That seems like it runs the risk of the players thinking they were just outclassed, which would render any of their tactical plans pointless.

 

[Herschel]

Whenever my players are clustered together, they refer to it as "fireball formation".

We've updated this for 4E. It's now refered to as "Standard Blast Pattern". When the party is in a blast pattern template, it's usually bad for the party.

 

[Ryujin]

Right. OTOH, negative reinforcement by itself starts to look stale after awhile, and people get their backs up. You whack a stubborn mule with a stick a couple of times, it might go. You whack it over and over again, eventually it just endures the whacking and does what it wants anyway.

This is why ideally you have both postive and negative reinforcement built into the same thing. The negative reinforcement knocks them out of their comfort zone and gets them to pay attention. The postive reinforcement makes them feel good about it, and means you need less reinforcement (of either kind) going forward.

It is true that for the truly habitual turtlers, they'll not even notice the carrots at first. You can get away with not using it. But the DM needs to get into the habit of including both, and when enticing turtles out of their shell, you really never know when something will click. You want that carrot already in place when they decide to go after it.

I think the main problem with changing player behavior of this nature is being too subtle. Me, confronted with extreme turtles, I'd just flat out tell them what I'm going to do: I'm going to set up situations where I can whack you with the +5 Stick of Turtle Slaying and at the same time tempt you with that Wonderous Rushing Ahead Magic Carrot. And then I'd do that. You can always back off and be subtle later.

Pretty much. I'm suggesting that using the stick, appropriately, might wake the mule up enough that it notices the carrot. Example: My players managed to end an encounter in 3 turns, by charging a creature that was controlling a Solo. Otherwise the encounter might have lasted 10 rounds.

 

[Nilbog]

I'd be curious to see the player response to being pommeled in fireball formation, for a group that's really used to fighting in fireball formation. I know some players who would go, "dude those critters had bad mojo, we need more healing." And the response may expand from there in the lines of, we need more hit points and resistances, we need more/better saving throws, we need to dish out more damage, etc. without ever coming to the conclusion, "we need to push forward."

Haha Thats my group in a nutshell! if they survive but barely it'll be we need more magic!! More potions! They tend to be ok with the tactics at the moment as they have two leaders in a group of 5 so lots of healing, but that can only stretch so far

There are some great suggestions in the list, so thanks to everyone
I've already got a great idea for my next encounter, a Hobgoblin raid on a tavern. I know the group wil ljust choke point the door, so I'm going to change the Hobgob beastmasters pets from Wolves to Young Phase spiders (only minions) and have them come down the chimney and start haressing the bar patrons the group are supposed to be protecting, that should draw at least a few int othe tavern

 

[jimmifett]

There are some great suggestions in the list, so thanks to everyone
I've already got a great idea for my next encounter, a Hobgoblin raid on a tavern. I know the group wil ljust choke point the door, so I'm going to change the Hobgob beastmasters pets from Wolves to Young Phase spiders (only minions) and have them come down the chimney and start haressing the bar patrons the group are supposed to be protecting, that should draw at least a few int othe tavern

Awesome! Don't forget, Taverns have windows too. Give your hobos an acrobatics check (easy or med DC, fail, they dive through, but land prone) as part of thier movement to dive through the window and into the tavern from angles they aren't expecting.

You also have the option of setting the tavern on fire. The hobos, finding stiff resistence, decide to just light the place on fire. Have one or more (preferably more) hobos adjacent to the building take a standard action with a torch to set the roof on fire, which collapses into the building as a Tavern Fire hazard at the end of the current round. After the end of each round there after, the fires spread further into the tavern, essentially become an expanding burst.
Lets simplify and make that more legible as a hazard...

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Expanding Taven Fire (modified Raging Fire hazard) Level x Blaster
Hazard XP xxx
The fire on the roof has collapsed a large section into the building. The fire is now out of control and spreading quickly across the room due to all the alcohol. At the start of the fire, the fire fills a 4 by 4 square area.

Hazard: A 4-by-4 square area of fire. The fire increases it's area by 1 square (from 4-by-4 to 5-by-5, etc.) in all directions at the end of every round. Cannot extend beyond the walls of the tavern unless another building is adjacent.

Perception
* No check to notice the fire
* DC 16: Character notices the fire spreading

Trigger: When a creature enters a space adjacent to the Tavern Fire or starts its turn in a space adjacent to or inside the Tavern Fire, the Tavern Fire attacks.

Attack
Free Action Melee 1
Target: The triggering creature
Attack: +6 vs Reflex (+11 if target is inside the fire)
Hit: 2d6 Fire damage and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends)
Miss: Half Damage
Effect: The fire also provides concealment due to smoke to all creatures inside it and within 2 squares of it. Any creature in this smoke must make an easy DC Endurance check at the start of thier turn to hold thier breath (medium DC if they have taken damage since their last turn). Failure: target grants combat advantage from choking.
Special: Each time the fire attacks, it spreads into it's target's space whether it hits or misses.

Countermeasures
* Acrobatics DC 20: A creature can move into a square of Tavern Fire or a square adjacent to it without triggering the attack on success.
* Two gallons of fire destroys 1 square of Tavern Fire.
* Targeting 1 or more squares with a water attack automatically destroys the fire in those squares.
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[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think having plot or other reasons to have the party be less cautious might also help.

For example, they are chasing a group of bad guys with the macguffin. They need to get the macguffin before a certain time to use it to stop the bad plot thing from happening. If they pile up on the choke point, the bad guys will just leave - potentially forcing the players to fight two encounters as once if they don't catch them quickly enough.

Another example is the bad guys holding a choke point themselves, like a gate or a bridge. If the PCs don't get up in their faces, the baddies will lock the gate/pull up the bridge and the PCs will have a much harder time of it.

Or the baddies could have hostages that they will kill if the PCs stay back. Or maybe they are getting on a boat that's about to pull away.

Generally, the more dynamic and active you can make a situation, the less likey the PCs are to stay still. Take some tropes from the movies - light things on fire, start the conveyor belts moving, have a large, angry beast start smashing through the wall (espeically one the PCs know will also attack their opponents)... whatever. Additionally, any time you can make something a chase scene will also make the PCs want to keep moving.

 

[TheUltramark]

lots of good ideas, to be sure

let me take a different position
Why penalize the players? I mean if they come up with a good plan, even if it is kinda obvious, they shouldn't be penalized. I don't know how many encounters I have thought were going to be very challenging, only to see the players come up with a brilliant plan on the spot, and kick the crap out my bright idea...I just tip my cap and mutter under breath...."we'll see how good you do next time"

That said, to add on to the "regular advice" - in a cavern, have the bad guys retreat, and find cover. Simple and effective. Of course that only works with intelligent bad guys.