"Tactics in Action"--maybe I'm just getting too old, but this sounded boring as hell.

[Mark CMG]

If your players are a bunch of tacticians this is exactly the kind of battle they want. My group would probably enjoy it a great deal.

It's good DM training to see that side of gaming, too, especially if your current group or first/only group isn't tactically oriented.

 

[William Ronald]

One of the problems I have with the premise is that the PCs are using the power creep of a zillion splatbooks, while the balor is an out-of-the-box critter that was designed with only Core spells and abilities. Naturally, the PCs are going to have a huge advantage by being able to mine the splatbooks for the most (over?)powerful spells in print.

Turnabout is fair play. So, if you allow PCs to work with spells and abilities from beyond the core rules books, so should monsters. For example, a DM might modify a balor's abilities to countr some of the powers the party might put into play. Also, don't forget that creatures can use magic items against player characters. Similarly, there can be some varity in outsiders, so some different powers can be justified. (So, if dominate monster does not seem likely to impact the party, perhaps another spell-like ability of equal level might work.) Also, I agree that the balor should have teleported more often and summoned some demons for back up.

 

[William Ronald]

It's good DM training to see that side of gaming, too, especially if your current group or first/only group isn't tactically oriented.

Mark makes a valid point in that DMs can benefit from seeing different approaches to combat, role playing, and other aspects of gaming. I like to think that I have learned a lot from different groups and players over the years. (By the way, this is one of the great things about going to conventions and EN World Gamedays. You can really see different approaches to DMing and playing different characters -- as well as sometimes learning about new games.)

Remember that intelligent opponents should take advantage of all their abilities and the environment. The use of teleport in one of the earlier posts being a prime example. (Possibly, a balor might want to grapple an opponent and try to teleport him and the opponent to another location. Also, some creatures can either fly or burrow, adding an extra dimension to the combat. It is somewhat hard for a fighter to swing a sword at a foe who is flying several yards above him.

 

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I don't know. Gandalf was only a 5th level magic-user, after all.

Cheers!

You beat me to it. Curses!



Shawn

 

[interwyrm]

What I would have done...

Round one: Fly, Whip the Wizard, quickened telekinesis disarm attempt on the dwarf. (Less likely to succeed, but greatest benefits of successful.)

Round two: Wizard takes damage, Balor flies upwards as far as he can and summons Balor #2. (I won't even go into #2's actions), quickened telekinesis disarm attempt on barbarian.

Round three: Blasphemy on the troops on the ground

Round four, five, six, seven: Implosion on troops on the ground

If wizard is dead, fly down and entangle the combat medic.

I really don't understand how the characters won. The heavy hitters were obviously melee oriented, the wizard was easily neutralized, the combat medic was noncombatative, and the elocator wasn't really a factor.

I have found that flying outsiders are a huge challenge for anyone under their cr.

 

[S'mon]

"So there you have it; a mighty battle"

Ha ha ha ha ha.... :\

 

[S'mon]

One of the problems I have with the premise is that the PCs are using the power creep of a zillion splatbooks, while the balor is an out-of-the-box critter that was designed with only Core spells and abilities. Naturally, the PCs are going to have a huge advantage by being able to mine the splatbooks for the most (over?)powerful spells in print.

That's my feeling. Splatbooks can really ruin the 'balance' that's so important to high-level 3e. I found the description of the fight tedious, the splatbook spells & the GM's poor rules interpretations made it a walkover.

 

[Berandor]

That article is pretty blatantly a giant ad. "Go buy these books so your characters can be more powerful, with just this stuff you can thrash a Balor levels earlier than you could before!" is the message between the lines in this article.

We have a winner!

 

[Numion]

I have found that flying outsiders are a huge challenge for anyone under their cr.

Of course, just like the Balor should've used his flight, any respectable 10+ level adventuring party should be able to take the battle to the skies.

Teleporting is usually not a very slick tactic, since it means one round during which the Balor isn't kicking ass on all cylinders. 4 PCs vs. one Baddie is already stacked against the bad guy since he's got mostly one rounds worth of actions vs. the groups 4. Grapple - teleport - division of the group is a good tactic, provided that the Balor isn't guarding something or otherwise was not allowed to leave.

 

[beaver1024]

So WotC gives us this Tactics in Action article, which is supposed to be an accounting of some kind of nail-biting rip-roaring battle. It's designed to illustrate how brilliant tactics can win the day, even against a monster whose Challenge Rating outstrips the player character's average level.

Man, more articles like that, and I could seriously be tempted to give up on D&D. :\

From wherre I'm sitting, the battle was completely lopsided, and the cunning tactics of the players basically amounted to cherry-picking the most bogus buffs they could gleam from a dozen different sourcebooks. One Knowledge skill roll tells the players what spells to expect the balor to toss, and one greater spell immunity gave them ironclad protection against them.

Even when the balor actually manages to do some damage in melee, it's all effortlessly brushed away by spells (revivify, moment of prescience, and fortunate fate). Put aside the author's attempts to make balor sound like a fierce opponent, and it becomes evident what a one-sided cakewalk this ECL 20+ battle was. The players not only walk away without casualties, they sound pretty much unscathed except for a few empty spell slots.

And this is the guy Gandalf took a week to beat? Lame.

But maybe that's just me...?

You're right, it's not that great. For 5 level 16-17 people a CR 20 creature is actually appropriate challenge in my view not overly difficult.

Did you notice that 99% of the spells that turned the battle are cleric spells? The article said that one the significant contributor was the wizard. However it seemed like the wizard didn't do anything at all except wasted a 5th level slot to use a his bow.