taking 10 - exactly what skills and skill uses are covered?

[TYPO5478]

But that's just it - you don't produce your average effort. You don't produce any effort at all - you either know it or you don't. Why does duress affect the fact that you know something?

I mean, I understand the idea that stress could make things hard to remember, sure - but that's not what this check is about. It's not about remembering - it's about knowing it at all. You either know or you don't. Why should stress effect whether or not you read that in a book 20 years ago?

What's the point of knowing something if you can't remember it? And if a knowledge skill represents how much you know (whether you can remember it or not), why have a check in the first place? There's a reason to think you'd have a random chance of remembering something, but there's no reason to think you'd have a random chance of retroactively knowing it in the first place.

Or were you suggesting that, in the D&D system, characters automatically remember everything they ever learn?

Spot opposed by Hide. Listen opposed by Move Silently. One mistake and the PC is caught. That's threat and distraction right there.

Actually, "threatened" is a specifically defined game term that roughly means "susceptible to melee attack." I don't believe that "distracted" is a rigorously defined by the rules, but I doubt that the mere potential of being seen sometime later would count as an immediate distraction for the purpose of hiding.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No PC is going to be able to remain calm and do his "average" job of hiding and moving silently when he knows that if he fails, the monster he's hiding from will instantly attack him.

How do you handle someone hiding in place, and in advance... for example, a PC getting ready to ambush someone who'll be along in 5 minutes?

-Hyp.

 

[argo]

But that's just it - you don't produce your average effort. You don't produce any effort at all - you either know it or you don't. Why does duress affect the fact that you know something?

I mean, I understand the idea that stress could make things hard to remember, sure - but that's not what this check is about. It's not about remembering - it's about knowing it at all. You either know or you don't. Why should stress effect whether or not you read that in a book 20 years ago?

Well, that has more to do with the wierdness of the Knowledge check representing "know it or dont" rather than a problem with Take 10. All the other skill checks represent your effort at something.

Personally the wierdness doesn't bother me enough to worry about it.

 

[Mistwell]

Actually the fact that something is an opposed check does not ALWAYS mean that it involves distraction or threats. But in the case of hide/move silently it does.

Your example of Disguise is correct because the PC works on a disguise IN ADVANCE, and later on someone gets a chance to see through the disguise. The PC can work on the disguise while he's safe at home alone, without threat or distraction.

Umm...that's exactly what hiding while nobody is around involves. You find a bush when nobody is around. You hide in it. Then someone comes around. You have not moved. The shadows are just as they were. They cover is just as it was. They make a spot check, but it's against your previous hide check, not a new one. It's the same situation as a disguise check. You should be able to take 10 on it.

But someone trying to spot a PC as they are hiding, or hear them as they try to move silently is OBVIOUSLY a threat and a distraction.

Only if you are attempting the hide check at the time that someone else is around. Not if you are doing it in advance for an ambush.

There's no way for the PC to hide or move silently while he's safe at home alone, without threat or distraction, and then use that later on to sneak past a monster. He has to make the checks AT THE MOMENT that the monster has a chance to see or hear him.

No he doesn't. There is nothing in the hide check that says you only make it when someone is trying to spot you. Just like disguise, you can make the check when nobody else is around, and then the opposed check can happen later when someone is around and tries to observe you.

Spot opposed by Hide. Listen opposed by Move Silently. One mistake and the PC is caught. That's threat and distraction right there.

The danger of being caught some time in the future is not a threat or distraction. Threat and distraction imply imminence.

No PC is going to be able to remain calm and do his "average" job of hiding and moving silently when he knows that if he fails, the monster he's hiding from will instantly attack him.

Yes they can. Just like disguise. This "worry about the future = threat or distraction" just doesn't make sense. "Worried" isn't what they mean.

And if the monster trying to spot the PC isn't a threat, then no checks would be needed. The PC can just walk right past it in broad daylight, wave hello, smile and keep going.

If you try to hide when the monster is around, then sure it's a threat. But if you prepare an ambush in advance by hiding when the monster isn't around, then the monster is not a threat to your hide check. Unless you are called on to make another hide check when the monster is around...which can happen if you start moving, particularly between cover or concealment.

Ultimately, it's up to the DM to decide what will and won't work with Take 10 in his own campaign. But in my opinion it's pretty obvious that whenever someone hides or moves silently, it's because the person they're hiding from is a threat. Therefore, no Take 10 allowed.

In my games, PCs, and frankly more often NPCs, lay in wait for an ambush. In those cases, it makes perfect sense to take 10. I think you are not considering all the likely uses of the hide skill.

 

[Mistwell]

What's the point of knowing something if you can't remember it? And if a knowledge skill represents how much you know (whether you can remember it or not), why have a check in the first place?

I consistently know my vehicle's license plate number. But only if I take a moment and really think about it. If asked for my license plate number under pressure, I have about a 50% chance of not being able to remember it. That's just how memory works sometimes.

If I were to take an exam involving recall of information (which is common), I will produce much more consistent answers if I am in a quiet room than if I have a person screaming at me all the time and jumping up and down. The screaming and jumping might actually produce the occasional burst of brilliance, because pressure can sometimes result in that sort of thing. Or it could result in a much poorer answer. But my performance will be much more erratic than if it were a quiet room.

 

[irdeggman]

Now I believe that Mistwell and I agree on hiding in place (aka camoflage) ahead of time. I know that Hyp and I do - but the rules (and FAQ) don't actually support taking 20 on it since the check isn't supposed to be made until someone is looking for you (or may spot you).

There are some teamwork benefits from the PHB II "Cunning Ambush and Cunning Ambush, Improved" That focus on hiding ahead of time.

But really there is no penalty for failure on a hide check - it either works or it doesn't. It is not like climb where you can actually "fall" and take damage because of it or UMD (and all of the things that could happen if you fail poorly).

 

[Jhulae]

Now I believe that Mistwell and I agree on hiding in place (aka camoflage) ahead of time. I know that Hyp and I do - but the rules (and FAQ) don't actually support taking 20 on it since the check isn't supposed to be made until someone is looking for you (or may spot you).

There are some teamwork benefits from the PHB II "Cunning Ambush and Cunning Ambush, Improved" That focus on hiding ahead of time.

But really there is no penalty for failure on a hide check - it either works or it doesn't. It is not like climb where you can actually "fall" and take damage because of it or UMD (and all of the things that could happen if you fail poorly).

Exactly.

And, it's the same reason why guards (and PCs) can take 10 on listen and spot checks if they really wanted to.

 

[irdeggman]

Exactly.

And, it's the same reason why guards (and PCs) can take 10 on listen and spot checks if they really wanted to.

Hmmm can you take 10 on a reflexive check?

The example in the PHB infers that taking ten is being careful.

""With a little care, he can take 10 and succeed automatically."

That is how I've always viewed taking 10 - taking care or being careful in an attempt - which is why you can't do it when rushed or threatened.

Taking twenty is attempting it over and over until you get it "right" or the best you can do.

 

[starwed]

I consistently know my vehicle's license plate number. But only if I take a moment and really think about it. If asked for my license plate number under pressure, I have about a 50% chance of not being able to remember it. That's just how memory works sometimes.

Except that in D&D land, once you've failed a knowledge check, that's it; a failed check indicates not that you cannot come up with an answer on the spot, but that you can't come up with it period. You can't try again until you've gained a good enough chunk of XP. So in your example above, asking the question under pressure somehow effects your performance without the pressure as well.

As others have noted, though, this is just the wonkiness of the knowledge skills, not the take 10 rules.

 

[evilbob]

Except that in D&D land, once you've failed a knowledge check, that's it; a failed check indicates not that you cannot come up with an answer on the spot, but that you can't come up with it period.

Exactly! Mistwell's example about the license plate is not how knowledge checks work: what would be more like it is if someone asked your plate's number while jumping up and down and that determined if you ever knew it, ever.

Or were you suggesting that, in the D&D system, characters automatically remember everything they ever learn?

Actually, I think under a strict reading of RAW, that's the case. It's like never actually having to sleep unless you are regaining spells.


As for all the hide-check shenanigans:

Mistwell, I believe you're saying that a hide check can be made in advance, and since its done without threat, you can take 10. Transit, I believe you're saying that a hide check is always a reactive check, and you don't actually make a hide check until someone can spot you - therefore, it is always made under duress, and you cannot take 10.

The hide skill description itself is not helpful in determining when you actually make a hide check, except that it is "normally" made "as part of movement." This seems to lend credence to Transit's POV, but it's certainly not irrefutable, especially since invisibility adds 40 to your hide check "if you are immobile."

The real answer, of course, is that this is the beginning of another thread topic.