D&D 5E Tasha's Drow Art and the Future of Their Depictions in D&D

[B9anders]

I like the new look. It's a change of shade only, which is tactfully conservative to in regards to what came before. And frankly, it's always been slightly iffy that "evil elf = black elf" even if it has mythological precedent from svartalfar that were said to be "blacker than pitchblack".

It should also make it easier for artists going forwards to work with. And besides, it is not as if we haven't seen a broad (and often awful) colour palette for drow in the past:

 

[billd91]

I stand by historical and factual evidence to the contrary, and in this instance alone, that the mythography, literature and cultural/religious practices revolving around this particular subject are not linked in any way to racial bias at the source nor by way of their borrowing by Gygax. To infer that they are is to ignore the facts as they exist and to promote an external set of views that are not consistent with the facts.

Just because the origin of the dark elves in Nordic mythology was unencumbered by centuries of race-based imperialism and slavery doesn't mean that the association between skin color and evil isn't problematic in a society that is dealing with the legacies of them. Ideally, Gygax would have noticed that and avoided the connection. The fact that he didn't underscores just how clueless white people can be and have been about racism in the US.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Realism in D&D, and fantasy fiction more broadly, IS difficult. Both because, well, FANTASY . . . but also because the real world is super complicated.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is, in the real world, technology and society are deeply intertwined, the size of the world is defined by the speed of travel and communication, and evolution, not wars between mythic gods in planes beyond, drives the development of everything. There are no sentient tree spirits, no "folk" who appear human, but whose soul and being are drawn from the magic of the river. No god has ever cried black tears that sprung up into a race of malevolent warmongers...or a race of flower-loving hippies...or a race of anything. These things don't exist. They can't exist. There is not a "realistic" version of these things.

There is a huge gulf between simplifying the real and attempting to make the mythic realistic. I can do the former. Granted, if I proposed an RPG entitled, simply, The Thirteenth Century, and the setting and background information had simplified, but reasonably realistic descriptions of various 13th-century peoples on each continent, most people would be horrified by the content. It would certainly not be age-appropriate for any players born after 1600. That world and its people are shockingly alien to our own, which is the way it is because rapid technological developments led to global empires and wars, ultimately leading to the last few decades of US financial & military hegemony driving a high level of economic and cultural homogenization of humanity.

WotC's FR wants to have 21st-century homogenization with a premodern technological landscape. It wants its humanoids to be both evolutionary and mythic in origin. It wants a paleolithic tribe with living side-by-side with a Renaissance city, each somehow having military parity, and the inhabitants of both having moral and religious outlooks that 21st-century Americans can sympathize with. None of this makes any sense at all; it's self-contradictory nonsense. The problem isn't that it's too simple; the problem is that it's brainless.

You can't make 5e FR "realistic" any more than you could make a 7-year-old girl's stuffed animal tea party "realistic." How would a fuzzy frog in a princess dress really behave at a tea party in Cinderella's castle? The answer is, that's an idiotic question...but it's still probably less idiotic than asking what Drow would really be like.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They've been doing that the last 30 odd years. Elistraee

20 years ago you had tens of thousands of Drow in the surface and a good chunk were not evil aligned (3.0 frcs). That was 2001. Pity 4E blew up the Realms huh?

Drow have not been always evil for a long time Drizzt isn't unique.

It's not the Drow as evil as such but Lolth being a demon/god that's corrupted them.

This is nothing new it just seems some people lately think they're pushing new ideas. They're not.

4e didn’t change the fact that there are a lot of surface Drow.

Fact is, 5e started out quite regressive on this stuff, and recent changes are just catching up to the lore of 3-4e.

 

[delericho]

Umm, all the racial issues of Drow aside, how about the incredibly sexist issues? I mean, I never really saw the whole "drow are black" as a big issue, mostly because drow are literally black, not just dark skinned. OTOH, the blatant misogyny that permeates the depiction of drow is, to me, a far bigger issue.

Hrm, the only matriarchy in D&D is evil, man hating, dominatrix women in BDSM costumes who enslave men whom they think are inferior.

Good grief.

IMO, one of the big mistakes they made was in failing to declare that all elven cultures are matriarchal. That obviously wouldn't solve all of the sexism issues associated with drow (not even close), but at least it gets away from the problem of them having the only matriarchal society.

Also, I think they might have made D&D's elves too benevolent - leaning in towards Legolas much more than Thranduil (or, even better, Imric from "The Broken Sword"). If they'd taken the view that elves were haughty, and proud, and capricious, and mostly only interested in humans if they felt their very touchy pride were insulted, the drow might have been less of a shock - just one or two degrees nastier. Elves could still be Good, but it would be good on the cosmic scale rather than the individual one - when the sides finally line up they'll be on the side of the angels, but don't for a moment think that they are angels...

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I stand by historical and factual evidence to the contrary, and in this instance alone, that the mythography, literature and cultural/religious practices revolving around this particular subject are not linked in any way to racial bias at the source nor by way of their borrowing by Gygax. To infer that they are is to ignore the facts as they exist and to promote an external set of views that are not consistent with the facts.

You say that you have evidence to the contrary, but don't present it. Do it if you actually have it.

 

[eyeheartawk]

I think we can all agree that Drow went downhill as soon as they stopped having moustaches. So, from jump in FR, basically.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I doubt many ancient Norse had ever seen anyone with dark skin tone.

Now that's just identifiably false. (Source 1 and Source 2) Sure, a lot of Norse people never met anyone with dark skin, but they had terms for those people, and absolutely knew that they existed.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I doubt many ancient Norse had ever seen anyone with dark skin tone.

Now that's just identifiably false. (Source 1 and Source 2) Sure, a lot of Norse people never met anyone with dark skin, but they had terms for those people, and absolutely knew that they existed.

These aren't different statements.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

WotC's FR wants to have 21st-century homogenization with a premodern technological landscape.

First, there is no actual thing as “modern” and “premodern” tech or culture. Tech and culture developed in a seemingly linear path in our reality, but if you went back 50k years and then watched a new “timeline”, things would develop in wildly different order, some things wouldn’t develop at all, and there would be developments that we have never seen.

It wants its humanoids to be both evolutionary and mythic in origin.

That isn’t a contradiction, it’s just nuance. There are some mortals who were created by gods or other powers, and some who just developed upon the world naturally.

It wants a paleolithic tribe with living side-by-side with a Renaissance city, each somehow having military parity, and the inhabitants of both having moral and religious outlooks that 21st-century Americans can sympathize with.

What tribe are you talking about? No tribes I can think of in FR have moral and religious outlooks that are compatible with 21st century American ideals.
As for military parity...what? Who? There are tribes that have steel weapons and armor, but they’re more similar to medieval cultures than Paleolithic.
If you mean like...lizardfolk, then...who says they have military parity with the great cities of the Sword Coast?

None of this makes any sense at all; it's self-contradictory nonsense. The problem isn't that it's too simple; the problem is that it's brainless.

Not at all, you just don’t like it.