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D&D 5E Tasha's really improved and changed the feel of Rangers


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Horwath

Hero
I can think of a number of ways to exploit that in a few seconds, and it pushes rangers back into boring hunters mark dependence. And hurts archers.

And for certain rangers, there is still competition between hunters mark and commanding a pet.


Not that you couldn't do that, but it's not a "simple" solution, it would require a major reworking across the board.
not much exploit, yeah you could have more chance to use some attack riders, but they are limited.

you are using 2 shortswords or a greatsword. Yes, you have more stable damage with 2 attacks, but you have weaker AoO or some other ability that gives extra attacks, like Gloomstalker ambush. Also, when resistances are an issue, you need 2 magic weapons instead of one.
or you deal some extra damage for 2 less AC(sword&board) and slightly weaker AoO(1 damage).
 

not much exploit, yeah you could have more chance to use some attack riders, but they are limited.

you are using 2 shortswords or a greatsword. Yes, you have more stable damage with 2 attacks, but you have weaker AoO or some other ability that gives extra attacks, like Gloomstalker ambush. Also, when resistances are an issue, you need 2 magic weapons instead of one.
or you deal some extra damage for 2 less AC(sword&board) and slightly weaker AoO(1 damage).
It's not only rangers who duel wield! Your suggested change affects everyone from barbarians to rogues.

But the obvious ranger exploit is hunters mark becomes "free to use" if it isn't competing with duel wield for bonus actions, and its damage is multiplied by the number of attacks you get every round. Bow, greatsword, pet all fall well behind the guy with two daggers.
 

Horwath

Hero
It's not only rangers who duel wield! Your suggested change affects everyone from barbarians to rogues.

But the obvious ranger exploit is hunters mark becomes "free to use" if it isn't competing with duel wield for bonus actions, and its damage is multiplied by the number of attacks you get every round. Bow, greatsword, pet all fall well behind the guy with two daggers.
5th level barbarian in rage, 18 STR, Extra attack,

greatsword vs. 2 shortswords;

2×(2d6+4+2) = 26

2×(1d6+4+2) + 1×(1d6+2) = 24,5

Even if TWF is in Attack action, barbarian is worse of at 5th level.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Sometimes you track someone during daylight and they can just slip in some cave opening or sewer, waiting for them to go ahead 300 or so feet can mean losing them, especially if it's a hard surface to track or they go through water part of the time so you need more or less constant visual lock.
eh.. 5e doesn't state how loud a PC is when casting a spell. So letting your foe get 300 feet away is excessive.

If you haveto be 300 feet away for a spell to not be heard, that's the DM punishing you. 300 feet is a large distance.
 

Mordhau

Adventurer
5th level barbarian in rage, 18 STR, Extra attack,

greatsword vs. 2 shortswords;

2×(2d6+4+2) = 26

2×(1d6+4+2) + 1×(1d6+2) = 24,5

Even if TWF is in Attack action, barbarian is worse of at 5th level.
The thing that makes two weapon fighting difficult is that it can easily become too powerful at lower levels before the Extra Attack. It can also become too powerful if enough extra damage gets added onto it, which is why so many damage features are once a turn.

So even while it's not great as it is, you still have to be careful with it.
 

5th level barbarian in rage, 18 STR, Extra attack,

greatsword vs. 2 shortswords;

2×(2d6+4+2) = 26

2×(1d6+4+2) + 1×(1d6+2) = 24,5

Even if TWF is in Attack action, barbarian is worse of at 5th level.
Berserker. Battlerager.

The thing about making sweeping rule changes is the effects can be felt in obscure subclasses.
 



Horwath

Hero
The point is this: you missed it.

There will be more, that I missed.
I didn't miss anything

Beserker: if using Beserk rage; again 18 STR and 5th level,

greatsword:
2× 2d6+4+2(2Handed), bonus action(beserk) 2d6+4+2 = 39

two shorswords:

2× 1d6+4+2(mainhand), 1× 1d6+2(offhand), bonus action(beserk) 1d6+4+2 = 36


Battlerager: with spiked armor

greatsword:
2× 2d6+4+2(2Handed), bonus action(armor) 1d4+4+2 = 34,5

two shorswords:
2× 1d6+4+2(mainhand), 1× 1d6+2(offhand), bonus action(armor) 1d4+4+2 = 33
 

Horwath

Hero
eh.. 5e doesn't state how loud a PC is when casting a spell. So letting your foe get 300 feet away is excessive.

If you haveto be 300 feet away for a spell to not be heard, that's the DM punishing you. 300 feet is a large distance.
when you have DMs that played lot's of baldur's gate, you know that casting has to be in a trong loud chant, hahaha!
And during night and in tunnels/caves, even moderate volume of voice carries far.
 


Horwath

Hero
Sure you did. You only worked out those two because I pointed them out. And that was stating with the B's. There are only another 70ish official subclasses to go.

Then you have your races to do. Hint: look at the ones with more than two arms.
who cares about races with more than two arms? if you would get more than one extra attack, it's just bad cheese.

what sub class would hugely profit from this. biggest gain would be melee rogue, but they kind of need it comparing to other melee classes(except monk) and ranged rogues. And other ranged classes.
 

Bolares

Hero
who cares about races with more than two arms? if you would get more than one extra attack, it's just bad cheese.

what sub class would hugely profit from this. biggest gain would be melee rogue, but they kind of need it comparing to other melee classes(except monk) and ranged rogues. And other ranged classes.
Fighters would benefit from wielding different kind of weapons, casters and half-casters would have easier access to free hands, double hand crossbows is finally viable, as you can reload with your extra arms...
 

If anyone says "I know a quick and easy fix" it just means they haven't thought problem all the way through. If the fix was quick and easy it would already have been done.
 

Horwath

Hero
Fighters would benefit from wielding different kind of weapons, casters and half-casters would have easier access to free hands, double hand crossbows is finally viable, as you can reload with your extra arms...
what does that have with off hand attack being merged with Attack action?
 


Horwath

Hero
What does what have to do with what? I was responding to your question about races with more than two arms...
those races still can only make one extra attack as off-hand. Anything other than that(object interaction, reloading, casting spells, carrying backup weapons) must be addressed withing race balancing. it should not matter in damage output of TWF and 2Handed weapons debate
 

To be fair it's not just the Ranger that has the issue here.

Bonus actions are a festering mess of game design.
Try playing a pure Hexblade, then get back to me about Bonus Actions. It is pretty simple. The rules are there. Either play within them, or don't play that type of char.

But ultimately, yes, the entire Bonus Action concept is horribly implemented. I have no idea how many times I have seen new players, or players that simply want to cheat, talk about using their Bonus Action when their char simply does not have one.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I think if the fighter's niche was pushed a little to include the '' spell less specialized monster slayer'', this would give it more thematic oomph, and then the ranger with spells could lean harder into the 4e Warden side of it, channeling nature to defend nature or the borderland folx.
The "subclass" model works better, however.

Have Class, Subclass, Archetype.

Class: Fighter
Subclass: Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/Paragon/Weaponmaster
Archetype: Subclass specific.

Put more meat into Subclass.

Class: Trickster
Subclass: Rogue/Monk/Bard
Archetype: Subclass specific

Class: Magic-User
Subclass: Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Artificer
Archetype: Subclass specific

Class: Priest
Subclass: Cleric/Druid/Shaman
Archetype: Subclass specific

The "class" here ends up looking a bit like a 4e power source.

Fighter
Fighters are at home on the front lines of combat. Tough, resourceful and deadly.

Tier 1: Tier 1 Fighters gain Fighting Styles and Second Wind
Tier 2: Tier 2 Fighters gain Extra Attack and Indomidable (reroll some saves)
Tier 3: Tier 3 Fighters gain Weapon Mastery (extra set of weapon damage dice) and Legendary Resistances (Indomidable now auto-succeeds)

The Paladin subclass might make the Weapon Mastery damage radiant, as an example of how the subclasses would modify base class features.

On top of it, the Paladin subclass would add spellcasting. The Weaponmaster subclass might add weapon specific features and abilities. The Paragon might add Battlemaster maneuvers, or might be the "simple" class with some extra static bonuses.

As a sketch:

Tricksters:

Tier 1: Tier 1 Tricksters gain Mobility and Expertise
Tier 2: Tier 2 Tricksters gain Sudden Strike (reaction attack) and Tumble (like the rogue 1/2 damage ability)
Tier 3: Tier 3 Tricksters gain Disable (stunning strike ish) and Reliable Talent

Magic-Users

Tier 1
: Tier 1 Magic-Users gain Spellcasting and Familiars
Tier 2: Tier 2 Magic-Users gain Focus and Wards
Tier 3: Tier 3 Magic-Users gain Arcanum and Refuge

Priests

Tier 1
: Tier 1 Priests gain Channel and Blessing
Tier 2: Tier 2 Priests gain Sanctuary and Smite
Tier 3: Tier 3 Priests gain Intervention and Incarnation
 
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