Teaching 1e/2e gamers the 3.5 basics in 5 hours or less

[Kalendraf]

It's easier to them, since they don't have 20 years of ingrained reflexes and house rules to unlearn.

I totally agree with that, which is why I'm looking for ideas. Teaching total newbs is far easier IMHO than teaching old schoolers who have a preconceived notion of the way things ought to work.

The basic goal here is to take a group of old school gamers and somehow manage to make them unlearn up to 20 years of prior gaming...at least enough to the point where they can easily handle the 3.5 rules instead. I'm not going to be their DM, so I won't be able to handhold them past this one session. I'll be in e-mail contact with their DM after this, but thats about it.

The Burning Plague (free, download from WotC's website) is IMHO the best adventure for getting a 3e newbie up and on his feet

Though I've used a few of the free WotC adventures I'm not very familiar with that one. Glancing thru it, I see a lot of EL3+ encounters and even an EL5 one. Together, these seem rather unbalanced for mere 1st level PCs. There do appear to be some basic skill use opportunities (spot, listen, search, open lock, disable device, etc). The adventure was written for 3e rules, so a few things have changed. For example, Kobolds are now CR 1/4 instead of CR1/6 so the number appearing in area 3 is much more powerful than an EL1.5 encounter. Reducing their number by 1/3 would bring them in line. There are probably some other 3.5 changes as well.

I'll think it over. Still considering making something up myself, but there are definitely some good ideas within it to mull over.

With all respect, I have to disagree with this. I think learning character creation step-by-step, seeing how it takes form, and understanding what details went into creating specific modifiers is vital for learning how the game works. If a newbie just picks up a premade character, he's not going to understand why things work the way they do, and that's an important piece. The player needs to know why his 1st level fighter with 17 Str and Weapon Focus in the longsword has a total of +5 to hit. Just telling him "You've got +5 to hit" isn't helping him learn the game. D20 is, at it's core, a simple system, but there are so many modifiers that I think it's impossible to learn to play without learning why things work as they do.

You do raise some good points. My main reason for focusing on pre-gen characters was to allow more time to cover other aspects of the game. But obviously, character creation is a pretty important one as well, and possibly too important to skip. I'll think it over and discuss it with them. I'm sure they'd enjoy making their own characters, though it surely means sacrificing time to cover some other aspects of the game.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You do raise some good points. My main reason for focusing on pre-gen characters was to allow more time to cover other aspects of the game. But obviously, character creation is a pretty important one as well, and possibly too important to skip. I'll think it over and discuss it with them. I'm sure they'd enjoy making their own characters, though it surely means sacrificing time to cover some other aspects of the game.

The problem is, every aspect of the game ties in to character creation, and vice-versa. Again, it boils down to the fact that without the understanding of why things work as they do, learning the game is just memorizing numbers.

I've seen it firsthand probably half a dozen times. Newbies simply don't learn the game if character creation is done for them.

My suggestion? Allot the entire first "session" to character creation. Don't worry about the 5 hours or less thing. Do one evening for character creation and basic rules (and maybe a quick example of play), and a second evening for the game itself. It may seem excessive, but I guarantee you, it'll be better in the long run.

 

[argo]

Area 3 is meant to teach the players the rewards of stealth/reconisance and punish players who kick down doors without thinking. If the players suprise the Kobolds they will have an advantage, if not the fight becomes much tougher. Still, if your fighter and cleric are in good armor they should be reasonably tough for the kobolds to hit (and if your fighter took Cleave he should be thankful since many of the kobolds have only 1 or 3 HP). Likewise Area 4 is much tougher if the Kobolds had time to get in their position. Of more concern in Area 4 is the dire badger waiting by the door, since the fighters should charge the kobolds at the other end that means the wiz is likely to meet him face to face which will likely result in one dead first level wiz: IME that is the only really badly designed part of the dungeon.

Area 5 can be a real knock down, drag out affair if your players aren't careful. It is meant to showcase the advantages of high ground and cover. Luckily it is also possible to roleplay your way out of this encounter. Any adventure, even a first level one, where a band of kobolds can bring the PC's to a stalemate gets a gold star in my book

Area 6 is a showcase for clerical turning, pure and simple. With a couple of successful turns it is a cakewalk, without it it could be lethal. For that mater this entire module is really a showcase for the iconic party (which shouldn't be suprising).

Area 7 is the bossfight and all bets are off. Jakk could be real trouble for the PC's if they are weak from the rest of the dungeon. But the PC's should outnumber him 4 to 1 and he only has 22 HP (con loss due to the plague) so he should be something they can take if they keep their wits about them.

Anyway I have had good experiences with the module for inexperienced players. Whatever happens I hope your group has a good time.

Later.

 

[Someone]

In my case I started with character creation, a first level module, and a fair warning: "The concepts are similar, though you shouldn´t assume they work the same way. For example, a +2 to Str is not the same as in AD&D since there´s not a jump at all from str 17 to str 19, but of course, a high Str modifies to hit and damage rolls. Also, spell generally do what the did, but the exact mechanics may also change; for example, Sleep has a saving throw now." That´s enough to start things.

For the first sessions, I kept the more complicated details of movement and AoO to myself, informing them of how they worked when applicable. For example, when a wizard started casting a spell in a threatened area, I explained briefly that concentrating and weaving your hands when someone is trying to hit you is a Bad Idea, and explained the alternatives (step back, Concentration roll...). I also designed encounters to teach them the use of feats. I remember one of them being a fight against some animated armors: since they were made of steel, they had a high hardness, but very low AC. Perfect to practice Power Attack.

 

[johnsemlak]

5 hours? I've taught the basics of 3E to newbies to RPGs in general in less than that time. One hour should be enough to create 1st level characters, then just start playing and the basics of combat should be clear in two or three encounters. After this, they'll only be foggy on AoOs and the difference between move-equivalent, standard and full-round. Once that is clear, the basics are covered. D20 is pretty simple. Details, of course, are details.

I've taught character creation to a small number of total newbies and 1e/2e veterans. Either way, it has taken me a bit of time, and in most cases far more than one hour.

I'm not saying it can't be done in one hour, but IME it has taken far longer. If you want to create complete characters, 3-5 hours to someone new to 3e seems a reasonable, perhaps the maximum, estimate to me.

Experience with previous editions definitely helps. But there are new things. The skill system, feat system needs to be completely introduced. Each class contains fundamental differences so they need to be looked at.

 

[Storminator]

It's easier to them, since they don't have 20 years of ingrained reflexes and house rules to unlearn.

Total Newbie: I'm third level and it's 2 orcs. I'd better be careful or I'll get hurt pretty badly.

1e/2e Trainee: I'm third level and it's 2 orcs. I'll barely break a sweat. Chargeeuuurgh thump.

You need to treat it like a training session, not a regular game. If you've walked thru PC creation, and the players grasp how and why the numbers are what they are, they grok the stats. So when your old schoolers go "chargeuuuurgh..." stop them and hand them the orc stats. Then they'll go "man, orcs are really tough... wait a minute, a greataxe does how much?"

I find that it takes quite a while to get a whole troupe of PCs made at once, especially with a limited set of PHBs and only one knowledgeable player. If you can find a second mentor it'll greatly accelerate the PC creation process.

PS

 

[Klaus]

I'll add my vote to The Burning Plague. It's short, has a nice mix of challenges that 1e/2e veterans, although unused to the mechanics, can think themselves through.

It showcases the hallmark 3e features:
- Trap (first encounter)
- Surprise/Cover (kobolds behind table)
- Grappling and Ability damage (weasel)
- Classed monsters (kobold sorceror)
- Identifying spells (dancing lights)
- Turn Undead
- Disease
- Evil cleric orc (something we never had in 1e/2e)

Plus it's really short. I ran 3 players through it in four hours.

I say let them make characters, but advise them to stick to the four basic classes (ftr, rog, wiz and clr) until they're used to the mechanics.

 

[Ariddrake]

Burning Plague was the first thing I ran and it was a great intro.

 

[Kalendraf]

My suggestion? Allot the entire first "session" to character creation. Don't worry about the 5 hours or less thing. Do one evening for character creation and basic rules (and maybe a quick example of play), and a second evening for the game itself. It may seem excessive, but I guarantee you, it'll be better in the long run.

That would be nice, but I live hours away in a different city, and due to busy schedules we will not be able to easily coordinate this for more than 1 session. Hence the 5 hours or less thing is one of the fixed criteria.

 

[Kalendraf]

I've taught character creation to a small number of total newbies and 1e/2e veterans. Either way, it has taken me a bit of time, and in most cases far more than one hour.

I'm not saying it can't be done in one hour, but IME it has taken far longer. If you want to create complete characters, 3-5 hours to someone new to 3e seems a reasonable, perhaps the maximum, estimate to me.

Experience with previous editions definitely helps. But there are new things. The skill system, feat system needs to be completely introduced. Each class contains fundamental differences so they need to be looked at.

I have seen this as well, where character creation has dragged on for far more than an hour. In most cases, it was due to the players spending a lot of time paging thru the PHB looking up the details on skills, feats, spells, domains, equipment, etc. It's very easy for a player who has prior game experience to want to make the "best" choice for their character which leads them to comparing all their various options.