Ten Level Classes/ Canonized PrC (3.5 and beyond)

[Belen]

I have read through the Shadowstar/ Roy thread and I think that I see a trend. In looking at most of the comments on the updated classes, we see a heavy frontloading of the first ten levels. The classes seem to be cool for the first half with relatively few bonus' and upgrades as you advance beyond tenth.

I am beginning to wonder if they are not "canonizing" the PrC. In my opinion, a regular class should be just as powerful as a PrC. A 20th level fighter should be equal to a 10 fighter/ 10 weaponmaster; however, as we have seen a lot of people fail to heed this rule. A PrC should be more of a specialization whereas you become good at something and bad at other things.

As we have already seen, casters are been somewhat "powered down." This power down includes the nerfing of Spell Focus, yet heavy spell DC classes are now available as DMG PrC classes. Does this beg to ask? Maybe they nerfed spell focus because they EXPECT casters to take a PrC rather than remain a straight caster?

PrC can be great, yes, but I do not think they should be such a part of the rules that people can expect, or even need, to have them. This is a design flaw, IMO.

Just a few thoughts. What do you all think?

Dave

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

I actually support that.

Let's take two fighters.

Fighter A - is a 20th level fighter
Fighter B - is a 10 Fighter/ 10 Raiper-PrC

Who would win in a fight? Well, in a generic fight Fighter A would win. But with rapiers Fighter B would win. With weapons of their own choosing it would be a bit of a toss up.

One of the things a PrC permits is the ability to specialize. Both fighters are just as "powerful" but the PrC lets one of them to focus. I think you're assesing the situation in terms that favor the specialist.

 

[drnuncheon]

I have read through the Shadowstar/ Roy thread and I think that I see a trend. In looking at most of the comments on the updated classes, we see a heavy frontloading of the first ten levels. The classes seem to be cool for the first half with relatively few bonus' and upgrades as you advance beyond tenth.

Let's see...

- Monk gets diamond body, greater flurry, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, improved ki strike, timeless body, empty body, better unarmed damage...
- Rangers get higher-level spells, camoflage, hide in plain sight, a virtual feat, and 2 more favored enemies.
- Fighters get 5 feats (and need 12 levels for GWS, IIRC)
- Bards get 2 or 3 new bardic musics and better spells.
- Rogues still get those nifty rogue special abilities (and more SA).
- Casters get spell levels 6-9.

Hmm. No, I guess I'm not seeing it.

I am beginning to wonder if they are not "canonizing" the PrC. In my opinion, a regular class should be just as powerful as a PrC. A 20th level fighter should be equal to a 10 fighter/ 10 weaponmaster; however, as we have seen a lot of people fail to heed this rule.

Sure - just don't assume that to mean 'a fighter will win a fight with the weaponmaster 50% of the time', like some people tend to - if the fight lets the weaponmaster use his specialty, then the weaponmaster should win. Otherwise he's not much of a weaponmaster.

Although the 'who'd win' is lousy for determining balance anyway, since the real measure of balance is how the character fits into a party.

As we have already seen, casters are been somewhat "powered down." This power down includes the nerfing of Spell Focus, yet heavy spell DC classes are now available as DMG PrC classes.

Hold on there - we have no idea what changes have been made to Archmage and Red Wizard. IIRC, Andy Collins has mentioned that WOTC made Spell Power "too good", so there's an excellent chance that it's going to get toned down. Comparing 3rev rules snippets with 3.0 PrCs is not going to give you a fair idea of what the 3.5 versions will look like.

J

 

[Cheiromancer]

I will be interested to see what they do with Spellcasting Prodigy. A strong feat (even in FR), its power is now doubled compared to Spell Focus.

 

[Belen]

Actually, the classes you mention can be argued to be PrCs. I would say that a monk is definitely a PrC core class. Their early abilities are really fighters who have taken the unarmed feat chain. The monk Bab now stacks with other BaB, so other than a few special abilities that are not feats, a Monk can be duplicated by 10 fighter/ 10 monk PrC.

What I am saying is that we get MORE encouragement to play a PrC after ten levels because MOST (not all) of the cool abilities are stacked into the first ten levels.

Rangers get special abilities to 11, then pretty much zilch except for a few spells and more favored enemy.

The only classes that seem to get things beyond 10th are:

Druid- (could be duplicated with cleric domains if done right- think of a "nature doman" that granted a few special abilities such as wild shape instead of spells.)

Monk- (really a specialized unarmed fighter)

Just my thoughts, but I think that we'll see more PrC classes now, rather than fewer. However, people may now choose to take them from 10+ rather than as soon as possible.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Actually, the classes you mention can be argued to be PrCs. I would say that a monk is definitely a PrC core class.

No...no they can't. They are CORE CLASSES no matter whether people think they should be or not...they are still CORE. Not Prestige.
Ummm..just Druid getting things after 10th? What about..hmm...ALL the spellcasters? You can't cast 9th level spells at 10th level, and not all PrCs give +1 Per Level...AND remember, PrCs are still OPTIONAL material, so its up to the DM what's allowed or not, even if they are in the DMG.

 

[drnuncheon]

Actually, the classes you mention can be argued to be PrCs.

Or they could be argued to be the ones that we've seen the revisions for.

I forgot barbarians, who get more DR and more & better rage.

I would say that a monk is definitely a PrC core class. Their early abilities are really fighters who have taken the unarmed feat chain. The monk Bab now stacks with other BaB, so other than a few special abilities that are not feats, a Monk can be duplicated by 10 fighter/ 10 monk PrC.

Except for the different skill list, monk bonuses to AC, unarmed damage, speed - or is that what you meant? Because by that logic, "other than a few special abilities that are not feats", a Rogue could be duplicated by a Ftr10/Rog10 PrC...

What I am saying is that we get MORE encouragement to play a PrC after ten levels because MOST (not all) of the cool abilities are stacked into the first ten levels.

Rangers get special abilities to 11, then pretty much zilch except for a few spells and more favored enemy.

Well, their most impressive spells, their biggest favored enemy bonus, Camoflage, and Hide in Plain Sight. I think you're downplaying the spells too much - the ranger list is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

Druid- (could be duplicated with cleric domains if done right- think of a "nature doman" that granted a few special abilities such as wild shape instead of spells.)

Err...sure. You could do it with fighter bonus feats, too, but it still works better the way it is now.

I think what you're seeing is that classes like druid used to be 'sub-classes' - so of course they're going to be 'like a cleric with some stuff'.

I mean, you could argue that everything except the core four is 'really' a PrC, and that the low levels could be duplicated with feats or other tweaking of the natural abilities.

J

 

[Jalkain]

Just my thoughts, but I think that we'll see more PrC classes now, rather than fewer. However, people may now choose to take them from 10+ rather than as soon as possible.

Well, in that case it doesn't sound like they are being promoted very well, does it? I mean, if you take them later than you did previously...

There seems to be a school of thought which believes that PrCs are setting some kind of standard in 3.5e. That seems unlikely, since DMs are not encouraged to accept PrCs that don't fit in with their campaign. My advice is: wait unil you see these prestige classes in 3.5e. At the moment we don't really know much about them. Then you can decide if the Archmage outshines everything else on the planet. And if it does, any sensible DM will ban it outright, or else house rule it into line with other core/prestige classes, irrespective of the fact that it's in the DMG.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I will be interested to see what they do with Spellcasting Prodigy. A strong feat (even in FR), its power is now doubled compared to Spell Focus.

Isn't this a non-issue? It is not a core feat in 3.5. Given it was created under 3.0, the way it is now would likely be reduced in power or removed entirely.