Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[neroden]

While Haste may have been too powerful, it was always a tough question whether to take it or Fireball, so from my point of view it was perfectly balanced at third level. At fourth or even fifth level I'd still take it sometimes. Hopefully if they've turned Haste into "Extra Attack" they've put "Real Haste" in at a higher level.

'Extra attack' gives no flavor. 'Extra attack plus increased speed' is better, but still eliminates my favorite (and I believe utterly balanced) use of haste: performing a standard action, a move, and a move-equivalent action. (Move, drink potion, cast. Cast, open door, go though it. Move, cast, move.)

I'd be reasonably happy with "Haste grants an extra attack or move-equivalent action", although I don't see what was so broken about being able to cast two spells in one round. (As opposed to high level fighters who can make oodles of attacks per round already.) Spellcasters are still limited by spells per day.

Changing Haste to make Quicken Spell more desirable is a *really* dumb change, given that several of the designers already agreed that the metamagic feats were misdesigned (because they impose a double cost). Changing the working part to support the broken part is never a good idea.

(Of course, if they made Quicken Spell so it didn't up the spell level at all -- or better yet, so that you also didn't have to pick which spells to quicken in advance -- then it might be a reasonable alternative to Haste; as it is it's better as a 'supplement' to Haste for those who want to cast three spells per round.)

 

[neroden]

> 3.) What? you don't have HASTE??? How >many players who had mages heard this >over and over again? How dare they not >take haste as a 3rd level spell? Does it >matter that the spell might not fit the >dmages "flavor" that the player was >trying to create? Don't get me started on >sorcerer. I mean they have a limited spell >selection and they are almost *required* >by most tables to have haste.

Never heard this once. Spells I have heard this about, repeatedly, are Magic Missile and Fireball, from which I can conclude that both of them are very severely overpowered. Are they being weakened? (I hope so!)

 

[neroden]

>don't know about you, but in the last two >years I've been playing 3e, having more >than 3 combat encounters in one day is >very rare. Usually it's no more than 2 in >one day.

Well, very different campaign style here! We generally have at least three, usually four or even five. Having 2 or fewer in one day only happens if those two were really tough and burned through all our resources so that we retreated and hid.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

> 3.) What? you don't have HASTE??? How >many players who had mages heard this >over and over again? How dare they not >take haste as a 3rd level spell? Does it >matter that the spell might not fit the >dmages "flavor" that the player was >trying to create? Don't get me started on >sorcerer. I mean they have a limited spell >selection and they are almost *required* >by most tables to have haste.

Never heard this once. Spells I have heard this about, repeatedly, are Magic Missile and Fireball, from which I can conclude that both of them are very severely overpowered. Are they being weakened? (I hope so!)

this is like the 10th time in the last couple days i've seen the claim that fireball is too powerful. And I want to know what the heck are people thinking. Magic missile sure it breaks the damage caps to a degree in that it is the 1st level limit and it auto hits and it gives no save. But fireball is bang on for a 3rd level spell, 10d6 area of effect. Honestly I think the damage caps are a bit on the low side, ooh 5-10d6 I'm shaking. I'm honestly boggled by this claim.

 

[Azure Trance]

That's the first I heard that Fireball / Lightning Bolt is too powerful. Their so ... ubiquitous. It's how all other (essentially Evocation, I suppose) spells are judged. Perhaps the argument isn't Fireball, but because Arcane Spells in general are so much more ... um ... dangerous, then a dinky sword?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

According to one "definition" of broken, if everyone takes it, then its broken.

By this criteria Weapon Finesse must be broken (rogues take it), along with Fireball, Teleport, and other common spells.

Its a silly definition, but some people think its official.

 

[WizarDru]

According to one "definition" of broken, if everyone takes it, then its broken.

By this criteria Weapon Finesse must be broken (rogues take it), along with Fireball, Teleport, and other common spells.

Its a silly definition, but some people think its official.

Actually, I think the definition was, if everyone takes it because it's too good NOT to. I've run three campaigns in 3E in the last three years, and played in another. None of the rogues in those games took Weapon Finesse, although a bard did. One of the rogues, now 18th, is considering it, perhaps after she goes epic.

Fireball is an iconic spell: regardless of how efficacious it is, people would take it or lightning bolt. As it is, they're not terribly powerful...just very useful. Teleport alone isn't amazingly powerful...but when combined with Scrying and other factors, it can be.

I agree it's not a wonderful definition, but it is one that Monte Cook put forth as one of the designers primary intents, which is why it's received such widespread adoption as a standard by which to judge.

 

[dravot]

WizarDru: you forgot that my monk took Weapon Finesse

 

[fl8m]

i just got haste as a 5th level wizard and honestly i use it mostly just to buff the heck outa myself, it seems like every other combat is an ambush by our opponents so i use the first round to haste then throw up shield or mirror image, then the next round i throw up 2 more defensive spells while the monk does his best to use his bad-ass kung fu to keep us alive. i need haste more to keep my 17 hp havin butt alive then to outdamage anybody. i don't much like the revision to haste but mostly because i just used up 4000gp and 320xp to make some boots of speed and now i don't see myself making much use of them.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'm getting OTT a bit.

fl8m, I know what you mean but I have found that, both as a dm and player that the solution is actually using spotting distances, plentiful terrain, cover and concealment. As often as reasonable.

This has the effect of giving everyone a bit of fence, bush, window or hill (etc) to fiddle with. Archers try to find themselves a good shooting spot, wizards to get an obstacle to stand behind, fighters get to use their strength to move stuff. Oh and you can use horses.

Point is, if you appear next to your enemies too often it will breed shorter-term tactics and negate a lot of fun that can be had.

Perhaps this maybe a good topic to talk about with your dm, if the change in haste is going to wreck your fun?