D&D General The 5e Ninja, would it be a class or a subclass?

[Misanthrope Prime]

Ever seen the Athasian Bard class? It's an assassin for reasons!

If you're talking about the whispers bard, I actually am currently playing one, but for me it doesn't really seem "roguish." It does have a pseudo sneak attack, but that's about it. It's more to do with information management, at least the way I play it.

 

[Steampunkette]

If you're talking about the whispers bard, I actually am currently playing one, but for me it doesn't really seem "roguish." It does have a pseudo sneak attack, but that's about it. It's more to do with information management, at least the way I play it.

https://darksun.fandom.com/wiki/Bard

2e Dark Sun Bard class.

 

[sevenbastard]

Barbarian

No armor but good AC, good at combat, danger sense, fast movement, hard to surprise.

 

[SkidAce]

Well, for me, there would be an Assassin class, of which the Ninja is one subclass. Other subclasses could be Agent (think "fantasy James Bond"), Cleaner (brutal "kill all witnesses" type), Poisoner (pretty obvious...), and some kind of esoteric-mysticism option that provides partial spellcasting.

All Assassins CAN kill. Some are more eager to than others.

So a Fighter? Or a Rogue (I've always looked at SA as the assassin function, can kill 99% of NPCs (depending on campaign))

Not meant as sarcasm, but a fighter could be melee or range based, could take the "ninja" background, train stealth, and there yah go.

Thoughts?

 

[SkidAce]

Well a huge part of why we font have enough GMs is because being a GM is always pictured as this authorian figure who needs to know all and controll all which sounds for many people horrible.

Or:

because being a DM is always pictured as having to handle, understand, and manage multiple aspects of a campaign, which for many people sounds horrible when they would rather just focus on their character.

 

[Corinnguard]

Or:

because being a DM is always pictured as having to handle, understand, and manage multiple aspects of a campaign, which for many people sounds horrible when they would rather just focus on their character.

As well as knowing the rules that can be overlooked or tripped over by the players during combat or during an important event within an adventure.

 

[Clint_L]

It certainly wouldn’t be the only class that was “too close” to other classes. One could make the argument that a Paladin should be a subclass of the Fighter or Cleric. Or that the Ranger should be a subclass of the Fighter or Druid. And yet, we have them both as individual classes, so I don’t see why a Ninja class that’s a Monk/Rogue hybrid couldn’t work.

I think because, per my post above, the shadow monk pretty explictly already is a ninja without using the word, probably because the word has cultural connotations. So you'd be creating class to be what a class in the game already offers.

Shadow monk abilities:

• wis/dex build
• use of simple and light martial melee weapons
• bonus action unarmed attack
• unarmed attack die
• dextrous attacks for grappling
• unarmoured defence
• flurry of blows
• patient defence
• step of the wind
• unarmoured movement
• uncanny metabolism
• deflect attacks
• shadow arts (darkvision plus enhanced darkness and minor illusion spells)
• slow fall
• extra attack
• stunning strike
• empowered strikes
• evasion
• shadow step
• acrobatic movement
• heightened focus
• self-restoration
• improved shadow step
• deflect energy
• disciplined survivor
• perfect focus
• superior defence
• cloak of shadows
• body and mind

Assuming you take stealth, which every monk does, what are you missing? Some folks mention using poison and/or being able to go undercover and impersonate people; those are easily covered by two feats.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Thats also ehat an authorian GM would say

And waking up this morning to find I've been called an "authorian GM" (whatever that is...) for wanting the game to be manageable enough for me to feel comfortable running it, is the absolute end of this conversation for me.

 

[Eric V]

You could always just make a ninja class and institute it in your game. Why debate anything about how the game should be if we're going to pretend like shaping it to our whims requires no complication or social capital?

Default rules matter, because every deviation from them is a negotiation, even if your table indulges in fantasies of an autocratic DM. I'd like to avoid unnecessary complications to the defaults to support content I think will be underwhelming. Again a subclass really doesn't complicate things unless it has some wonky or confusing ability at levels people actually play. A new class does.

I'd like to see what the professional designers come up with for their game system; since I am not a professional game designer, this makes sense.

You, as a DM, have to make such decisions about what to include/exclude already; it's part of the job. Let's not pretend they are equivalent.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So a Fighter? Or a Rogue (I've always looked at SA as the assassin function, can kill 99% of NPCs (depending on campaign))

Not meant as sarcasm, but a fighter could be melee or range based, could take the "ninja" background, train stealth, and there yah go.

Thoughts?

I am not persuaded by any argument which simply says "well what if we tried to do that with less?" If your goal is to create a minimalist game, cool, but D&D hasn't been that...ever. Not even Basic was that minimalist.

I, personally, think that the Assassin is as different from the Rogue and the Fighter as Ranger, Bard, Paladin, Barbarian, and Monk are different from those two classes.

Or, if you prefer: Would Fighter plus "flunked magic school" background be enough for Eldritch Knight? Would Rogue plus "went to bard college" background be enough for Bard? Would Fighter plus Acolyte be enough for Paladin?

I know there are people who would say, even insist, that the answer to all those questions is yes. I am not one of those people. I see significant utility in allowing an idea the space and focus of a full class, rather than trying to give it a paper-thin, superficial appearance of being fulfilled by things that are entirely inadequate to convey the class fantasy.

Some ideas are big enough that even a subclass doesn't do them justice.