D&D General The 5e Ninja, would it be a class or a subclass?

[Greg K]

As someone that would use a different system for Naruto and some other specific anime inspired ninja, I, personally, would go with one of the following for D&D:
1. Rogue (Assassin) or a Light Armored Fighter variant. Add a Ninja background, trade armor proficiency for the monk's unarmored defense per the variant rule in the DMG, take the Unarmed Fighting Style (the Rogue via the Martial Adept feat).
2. Rogue (Assassin) or Light Armored Fighter. Add the Ninja background and multi-classing with Monk (Open Hand) and Artifcer (for creating smoke bombs, device to walk on water, etc.)
3. A Ninja class or Rogue with a new Ninja subclass that blends elements of the Rogue (Assassin), Monk (Open Hand) and Artificer abilities.

*Edit: For Naruto inspired and some other versions of anime Ninja, I would use BESM (Dyskami), OVA (Wise Turtle), Ninja Crusade (Third Eye Games), or a superhero RPG such as BASH! Ultimate Edition (Basic Action Games), Mutants & Masterminds (Green Ronin) with the 2e Mecha & Manga, or Icons: Assembled Edition (Ad Infinitum)

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I'd like to see what the professional designers come up with for their game system; since I am not a professional game designer, this makes sense.

You, as a DM, have to make such decisions about what to include/exclude already; it's part of the job. Let's not pretend they are equivalent.

Alright, well there are plenty of unofficial options I'm sure (and there is no professional licensing for game designers, so "professional" is a pretty nebulous construct). I wasn't actually trying to put a burden of game design on you, so sorry if I was flippant about that. I just think the official rules should keep down the bloat to a place where most people don't start every campaign getting, giving, or negotiating a litany of what character creation options they are going to forbid.

And with that I'm unfollowing this thread. I really didn't mean to say much more than "a class would probably be a mistake, a subclass seems good" but I've been told by one person I'm being to authoritarian a DM and and told by another I need to just ban classes, which makes me feel like I'm probably being criticized from multiple extremes of opinion, and that usually is a good time to nope out of a discussion. Shine on you crazy ninjas!

 

[Mecheon]

Not meant as sarcasm, but a fighter could be melee or range based, could take the "ninja" background, train stealth, and there yah go.

It'd be ineffective at what it does and would be wasting the idea. Whole reason a lot of other new martial classes are developed, 'just stick 'em in fighter and ignore 90% of the mechanics' doesn't lead to effective playstyles. If someone wants to play a ninja, they want to be effective at it, not "I'm deliberately gimping myself by playing the heavy armor fighting class in an inefficient way"

Shadow monk's the go-to way for most stuff, but due to Ninjas typically having associations with mystical power of one form or another, there's some easy classbuilding potential. It'd be very rogue adjacent but if a game is focusing on ninjas enough, there's grounds for going for a whole separate class

and, well, it'd make more sense by focusing on "Weird ninja traditions" than whatever the hell they were doing with ninjas back in OA

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

First; define your Ninja.

If you want ninja to be able to run the gamut of the historical espionage agents, hollywood's "monks, but in black!", or naruto-style spellcasters, then a background, or even just membership in a faction is all that should be required. These are all quite well covered by existing classes. and a single class can't really cover all those mechanical concepts.

The alternative is to decide what a "ninja" is to you, and what they should be able to do mechanically to realise that concept, and then create a class around that.
We can certainly help with that, but were going to need an idea of what you want first.

"Assassin" is similar. To me it means someone who kills specific people, generally for payment or politics, with the minimum of fuss, collateral, and personal risk. To others it means someone who kills their way through an entire compound. For some it denotes a style of doing things, for others just a profession or calling that any class could perform in their own way.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think because, per my post above, the shadow monk pretty explictly already is a ninja without using the word, probably because the word has cultural connotations. So you'd be creating class to be what a class in the game already offers.

Shadow monk abilities:

• wis/dex build
• use of simple and light martial melee weapons
• bonus action unarmed attack
• unarmed attack die
• dextrous attacks for grappling
• unarmoured defence
• flurry of blows
• patient defence
• step of the wind
• unarmoured movement
• uncanny metabolism
• deflect attacks
• shadow arts (darkvision plus enhanced darkness and minor illusion spells)
• slow fall
• extra attack
• stunning strike
• empowered strikes
• evasion
• shadow step
• acrobatic movement
• heightened focus
• self-restoration
• improved shadow step
• deflect energy
• disciplined survivor
• perfect focus
• superior defence
• cloak of shadows
• body and mind

Assuming you take stealth, which every monk does, what are you missing? Some folks mention using poison and/or being able to go undercover and impersonate people; those are easily covered by two feats.

i wouldn't want a ninja to go full naruto but i feel like there is a reasonably sized pool of references for ninjas using elemental abilities, i'd like for my preferred ninja to access the elemental disciplines that the four elements 5e14 monk had, or at least a reworked implementation of them

also i don't think unarmed attack is especially important for a ninja, i feel they're more known for their versatile array of weaponry, kunai, shuriken, needles, assorted blades, claws, caltrops, bolas...i think? i'd give them weapon masteries instead,

 

[Incenjucar]

In Pathfinder, I find their Swashbuckler class works well for ninja characters. They are dex-based, are empowered by doing distracting things and tumbling (i.e. ninja flips), with options for performance, intimidation, or tripping/grabbing, they focus most of their damage on a big attack instead of standing still with multi-attacking, and they can apply their big damage to shuriken and other thrown weapons for a feat.

Port something like that into D&D and you just need to make sure they have some fun toys to use.

 

[Silam]

First; define your Ninja.

If you want ninja to be able to run the gamut of the historical espionage agents, hollywood's "monks, but in black!", or naruto-style spellcasters, then a background, or even just membership in a faction is all that should be required. These are all quite well covered by existing classes. and a single class can't really cover all those mechanical concepts.

Big +1.

Creating a class, even with several subclasses, is a pigeon-holing endeavor.

Ninjas have such diverse skillset that it’s really hard to pin them down into the straightjacket of a class, unless that class is Wizard and you have a ton of spells to choose from. Most other classes lack the versatility to embody everything a ninja can be (and even Wizards too, I only meant they were at least a little flexible and spell picks meant they could vary from build to build and day to day).

Anyway, multi-class is the way. Can’t put a ninja in a straightjacket. They are escape artists. You’ll find the jacket empty, still locked in the white padded room.

 

[Greg K]

In Pathfinder, I find their Swashbuckler class works well for ninja characters. They are dex-based, are empowered by doing distracting things and tumbling (i.e. ninja flips), with options for performance, intimidation, or tripping/grabbing, they focus most of their damage on a big attack instead of standing still with multi-attacking, and they can apply their big damage to shuriken and other thrown weapons for a feat.

Port something like that into D&D and you just need to make sure they have some fun toys to use.

Over the past week, I just watched the Octagon plus a handful of Cannon 80's Ninja films for the first time. Unarmed striking techniques played a role in those movies along with the Ninja weapons, acrobatics, stealth, and, often, the fun Ninja "toys" (e.g. smoke bombs, shuko and ashiko for climbing, tetsubishi (iron caltrops)) So, I, personally, would want unarmed striking techniques along with tripping/grappling techniques.

 

[MGibster]

Its really just authoritorian fantasy of many GMs that they need to know what player classes do (in order to forbid it etc.)

The reality is that I need a good idea of what the PC is capable of so I can plan encounters accordingly. Planning appropriate encounters is somewhat difficult for me in 5th edition.