The Arms Race of Races

[Gloombunny]

Actually, there's another point about the half-elf that just occurred to me: as you level up, new powers become available, and players can swap out powers for new ones. Some of those powers will be at will. Shouldn't half-elves be able to replace their "at-will as encounter" powers as well? Actually, the class isn't specified; could they take at-wills of an appropriate level from prestige classes? It seems logical (and consistent with race flavor about adaptability) and should ensure that the ability will be useful at higher levels.

Paragon paths don't get at-will powers, though. I'm not sure if classes even get any replacement at-will powers as they level up either.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the big thing for the tiefling is the fire resistance. So far, it is the ONLY core race to get a true resistance, and at high levels its start turning into a near immunity to many fire attacks.

From what I've seen, ongoing fire damage is often only 5 per round or less, so a tiefling is completely immune to that. I agree that the tieflings infernal wrath is not as good as the elf's reroll, but he does have some other stuff to make up for it.

 

[rhm001]

Paragon paths don't get at-will powers, though. I'm not sure if classes even get any replacement at-will powers as they level up either.

I'm not sure about paragons; have we seen the full write ups for any of them? As for classes, this article at least suggests that at wills will be available at higher levels. That said, it's not clear, so we'll have to wait until the books are out to say for sure.

 

[Kitirat]

1. The tiefling's ability to hit back against a foe who just hit them is +1 attack, +cha damage. For reasons unknown, the pregen tieflings all have low charisma. I think this ability is a lot cooler if you're playing a character with better charisma, such as a Warlock or a charisma based Warlord.

2. It seems very likely that the half-elf gets +2 Cha +2 stat of his choice. Getting two stat bonuses, one of which is floating, is a pretty sweet bonus. I don't think the pregens have used this as well as they could. Furthermore, the ability to take an at will from another class and use it as a per encoutner ability is the sort of thing that will get better as more classes are released. So again, I think there's potential here.

3. You seem to rate poorly the races who's primary benefits are more subtle. I know that the elf and the eladrin get flashy abilities that are very noticeable and which, when used, can noticeably change the course of battle, but my personal preference is for abilities that slowly, subtly alter the course of the game in my favor. That means that races like Human are particularly nice for me. The +1 defenses is subtle, but it helps. Same with the bonus feat that can let you select +1 to saves. Or the bonus skill, which gives you a small but noticeable increase in the number of times you can say "Oh, I can do that" when something comes up out of combat. Or the +1 at will, which lets you add diversity to your attack choices, and makes you more likely to have the right tool for the job at any given moment. I can see why other people wouldn't find these exciting, but its the sort of thing I go for.

1) So it is the only race which forces you into Chr based classes to maximize its effect? Look at wizard for a second.
Dwarf wizard? You have 5-8 more hit points effectively with your minor second wind.
Halfling? Likely will get out of a big hit.
Elven? Daily much more likely to hit, can move into difficult terrain to get away from enemies more easily.
Eldarin: Get out of jail free teleport.
Dragonborn: Free close AoE attack to get rid of minions (often the wizards biggest issue).
Human: Get 3 at wills for more options.
Tiefling:...?

The point is all other racials do not require you to have a specific stat to be effective. They just are effective. So while it has situation potential, overall it is IMO inferior to those who have universal use.

2) In the best case, that is a +! to hit and damage with the floating stat. It is not anywhere near useful enough to make up for their inferiority.

3) True, subtle effects are less likely to draw players in than flashy ones. But look at humans, there effects are subtle, but I still rate them highly. The tiefling is too situational and the half-elf too underpowered (even with his versitilty) to compare to the others IMO. It goes beyond just subtlety(sp?) and moves into the actual racial abilities as a comparison.

See ya,
Ken

 

[Blackbrrd]

+1 attack/+Cha damage is still inferior to rerolling a missed attack, especially when it's so conditional. Plus it kinda shoehorns tieflings into Charisma-centric classes, which is sorta lame. Most of the +2/+2 races can at least choose classes that emphasize either one of their two bonused stats.

I'm tempted to try to come up with a replacement for tieflings' racial power as well as for their appearance. :/

The tiefling racial ability isn't too good on anything but a character that is hit often. In other words, a paladin or a fighter.

Tieflings gets a stat bonus to int and charisma, which is the primary stat for... well... the wizard and warlock? Both are secondary stats for a lot of classes, but you really want an 18 in your primary stat.

 

[Stalker0]

I will say I do find it odd that while most races get racials that just work, dragonborn and tieflings get stat based abilities. An elf's ability to reroll is going to be no matter what class your playing. For the tieflings and dragonborn it is more specific.

 

[Kitirat]

I will say I do find it odd that while most races get racials that just work, dragonborn and tieflings get stat based abilities. An elf's ability to reroll is going to be no matter what class your playing. For the tieflings and dragonborn it is more specific.

The dragonborn get to choose which stat is used for their abilities, the tiefling is stuck with their's.

 

[FireLance]

I'm tempted to try to come up with a replacement for tieflings' racial power as well as for their appearance. :/

Just convert it to a flat attack bonus. Maybe +3 or +4?

 

[rhm001]

The dragonborn get to choose which stat is used for their abilities, the tiefling is stuck with their's.

He may be referring to the CON healing bonus, not the breath weapon.

 

[Cadfan]

1) So it is the only race which forces you into Chr based classes to maximize its effect?

I hardly think that the ability is only worthwhile if Cha is your primary stat. I'd also consider it worthwhile if Cha is a secondary stat, like with Rogues, Clerics, and Warlords.

I wouldn't consider it worthwhile if Cha was a dump stat, of course.

I don't consider this much different from other races. Sure, tieflings don't make good fighters because fighters don't focus on Cha, and one of the tieflings racial abilities does. But elves don't make good warlords, because of the four ability scores a warlord might want, str for attack, cha and int for class abilities, and con for durability, elves get bonuses in the other two, dex and wis. It happens.

2) In the best case, that is a +! to hit and damage with the floating stat. It is not anywhere near useful enough to make up for their inferiority.

I have to disagree. Suppose I want to play... how about an elven cleric. I get good use from my +2 wis, but the +2 dex is kind of wasted. If I played a half elf cleric, I'd get +2 cha and assign my floating +2 to wis, giving me bonuses in both my primary stat, and my secondary stat related to my build. This increase in the efficiency of your ability score usage is worth a lot. It means that as long as Cha is either your most important or second most important stat, you get perfect synergy between race ability score bonuses and class ability score needs.

3) True, subtle effects are less likely to draw players in than flashy ones. But look at humans, there effects are subtle, but I still rate them highly. The tiefling is too situational and the half-elf too underpowered (even with his versitilty) to compare to the others IMO. It goes beyond just subtlety(sp?) and moves into the actual racial abilities as a comparison.

I was actually talking about your opinion of humand and dragonborn. I see their persistent, subtle benefits as being worth as much or more than the flashy abilities of the races you put in the top tier.

Overall, tieflings do disappoint me a bit. Maybe that will change when I see the tiefling racial feats, or if it turns out that one of the classes or subclasses uses a cha/int combination. But half elves are very solid, in my opinion. And humans and dragonborn are definitely top tier.