D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I was introduced to the concepts of the mythos, well before I ever read anything that was his work, and way way before I found that he was a racist.

EDIT: In fact its been so long since I've read anything specifically Lovecraft, I cant remember the story that first had me think that the concept of cosmic horror, in terms of the scope of the cosmos and humanities insignificance, was interesting. I know I was young, and I haven't been young, in a long ass time. :D
Yeah, this is a very common experience because of how influential his work has been to the horror, sci-fi, and fantasy genres. I would be far more surprised to meet someone who actually read Lovecraft before encountering his mythos.

I actually think that’s a great thing, because there is really great, worthwhile stuff in his work, and I’m really glad that modern creators have been able to recontextualize and reclaim cosmic horror from its racist roots.
 

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Scribe

Legend
Yeah, this is a very common experience because of how influential his work has been to the horror, sci-fi, and fantasy genres. I would be far more surprised to meet someone who actually read Lovecraft before encountering his mythos.

I actually think that’s a great thing, because there is really great, worthwhile stuff in his work, and I’m really glad that modern creators have been able to recontextualize and reclaim cosmic horror from its racist roots.
Yeah now I'm stuck trying to remember what it was I had read of his first.

One about trying to sleep/insomnia? Another about a tree? Its been decades...
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I call it Schrödinger Offense. It's when something is simultaneously offensive and inoffensive until we find out who said it and know for sure one way or the other. But the truth is our surroundings and prior knowledge has an influence on how we interpret things. You can convince people fast food is gourmet if you feed it to them on fancy china versus paper containers.

It's a very good name, I think I'll re-use it. The thing is that we all have biases, it's hard enough to take them into account in our thinking, so consciously retro-adding a strong bias that might actually have little reason for existing due to the time of authorship compared to offenses seems extreme to me. If you could not detect it at the time,, maybe it was really almost non-existent, or maybe your sensibilities have since then been exacerbated into something that prevents you from judging the past rationally. It at leasts requires thinking about it rather than giving in blindly.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
In this case, it's more like: the thing could be interpreted two ways. Absent context, you have a default (assume the best, maybe). But then you learn the author/artist holds certain views in real life, so with that added context a particular interpretation becomes much more likely.

The problem is that it's generally way more vague than this, it's not even subject to interpretation, no-one noticed it, but suddenly some new things pop up and then everyone is "of course it was there from the start". If it was, how come no-one detected it ?
 

If people…both individually and as a collective…are improving, then the past will be contentious at times. It cannot be otherwise unless we stop improving.

I'd say changing instead of improving. There is no reason to assume the newest situation is systematically better than the old, except that our current value match exactly... our current values, so we perceive them as ideal.
 
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Lyxen

Great Old One
I'd say changing instead of improving. There is no reason to assume the newest situation is systematically better than the old, except that our current value match exactly... our current values, so we perceive them as ideal.

Although there are ups and downs, I would still say improving overall. The difficulty is that our focus changes over time and as crisis appear, which means that we leave behind things which are not entirely resolved. But globally, although painfully and with unwanted side effects, our awareness increases.
 

teitan

Legend
I think all these conversations are tantamount to telling people they are having "bad wrong fun" myself because it is the intent of the person perceiving it as much as the artist creating it. In cases like D&D Gygax didn't have racist intent nor did he encode racist tendencies into the work. The Drow for example are a negative photograph BUT some later artist chose to interpret "ebony black skin" and "inky black skin" with brown skin tones for Gygax's demon worshiping, incestuous, murderous, genocidal underground dwelling cultists. Yes there are less than reputable people who play these games and see these things but we also have the "seer sees, prover proves" psychological theory where if you go looking for something, you will find it and once you switch gears to looking for something else you will find that something else. The big example of that that we may know from pop culture is the number 23 or the 11:11 phenomenon. Once we notice the "pattern" or we are told there is a "pattern" we begin to see the pattern around us and it becomes a very real thing and of exaggerated importance as seen in the Jim Carrey film, The Number 23. This is not to say that there aren't historical antecedents of racism that are the roots of the archetype, most often rooted in the fear of the outsider and xenophobia but the strongest fears are based upon actual experiences, whether the fear is legitimate or not. Orcs for example, in Tolkien, are rooted, by his own words, in the Mongol hordes invading Europe under Ghengis Khan and there was a very real phenomenon to this fear as the horde was brutal as it tore across the country side, implanting on the psyche of the Western mind. This doesn't excuse the idea of portraying the Orc as Mongolians, but the imagery of hordes of invaders also by extension stretches to Nazis, the Persians, the Goths, and even the European push in the the Americas, Africa and Asia. The D&D Orc to me always seem to have more in common with the Visigoth, especially in Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms where they would sometimes unite under a charismatic leader and go on raids into the less mountainous regions to claim resources before stretching themselves to thin and receding back to their homes.

Some people will read D&D and be offended and we have seen this since the beginning, people have looked for reasons to find the game and its contents problematic while similar games with similar content, or even more extreme content, were largely left unpillaged. In the Satanic Panic D&D was drug over the coals as Satanic and about demon worship and TSR expunged such elements from the game while other games continued to feature these elements unscathed or mentioned because D&D had the "name". Then it was the butt of jokes and swept under the rug and people played Vampire who were cool.

Now we have a similar movement to the Satanic Panic, which in itself was a moral panic. We have academics looking into things, talking about things like Critical Race Theory (which I am all for), and identity politics and understanding the origins of these ideas and their roots and then it, much like in the Satanic Panic, spreads to others who, having good intentions, begin to see things instead of taking face value and telling people how they are "wrong" or "doing it wrong". I had a Twitter D&D person block me because I had the wherewithal to disagree with their assertion that pre-2014 D&D players were all prejudiced grognards who didn't want female/transgender/POC players at their tables when you can look back through this very forum and see threads going back to 2000 where we discuss these things and ways the game can reach those audiences, from Blue Rose T20 being a project that could hopefully appeal to the LGBT crowd and BESM being a gateway product that could be wonderful for bringing in women who were a primary manga audience at the time with Shoujen and similar genres being big releases for that game (as examples).

D&D has indeed had it's share of problematic content from the aforementioned Drow portrayals with traditional African skin tones instead of the black, inky skin tones intended by Gygax to the Red and Yellow Orcs of the Mystara setting. Books like Oriental Adventures though I think get a bum rap though because it was produced with an intention to respect and emulating the fantasy stories and materials available to western audiences from Asian producers. It is a valid discussion but has become exceedingly broad to discuss "problematic". Problematic would be portraying Nazis as "good guys" or literally using "Birth of a Nation" as the foundations of a campaign setting. It would be continuing to cast European descended actors in Asian or Native American or African roles and vice versa.
 


Lyxen

Great Old One
I think all these conversations are tantamount to telling people they are having "bad wrong fun" myself because it is the intent of the person perceiving it as much as the artist creating it.

Just to mention that I completely agree with what you said, and to reinforce the message about the orcs, I don't think people today have specifically a problem with the Red and Yellow Orcs of Mystara as these are, I think, shrouded in the past (not that they are not problematic, just that they are very much under the radar for being such a small part of an almost long forgotten setting), but they have a problem with the orcs since they were portrayed as very black in LotR, in particular in relation with blackface. The thing is that, in D&D, Orcs have never been really dark of skin, being more greyish or greenish, and in some cases really green. As for LGBT, although the proportion of women at our tables has never been high, I can say that, on the other hand, the population of trans both at our TTRPG and LARP games has always been way higher than those I could meet outside the hobby, especially in LARP games.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
I'm here to point out that if people are feeling uncomfortable with reading/recommending Harry Potter and similar books by J.K. Rowling, and want to substitute a young-adult book series at least as good and made by a person that isn't a total douchebag, read Rick Riordan's books instead.

Percy Jackson and Rick Riordan's other series are a perfect substitution for them. Diverse characters, especially in his later series, with great personalities, playing with/subverting standard fantasy tropes/clichés (The Chosen One, always-evil-monsters, and similar examples), and far less plot holes and changes to how magic works than there are in the Harry Potter series. And you can tell that he does a ton of research into real world mythologies when writing his books, and how he engages with his community shows that he's legitimately a good person (he wrote the series as a way of supporting his son that has ADHD and dyslexia, writing a series where someone like him is the main protagonist and these "disorders" are actually helpful).

If you want to support a popular fantasy author that has books aimed at the same age group that Harry Potter was, Rick Riordan is your guy.

Just . . . don't watch the movies. Those never happened. They're a prime example of what not to do when converting a book series to the big screen.
 
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