D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[darjr]

A gameholecon panel. Recorded by Mike Shea.

A recording of the "Beautiful Mess of 5e" Gamehole Con seminar recorded on 15 October 2025 with Teos Abadia, Shawn Merwin, Mike Mearls, and Mike Shea.

The intent was to discuss the nature of 5e and the cloud of games that are 5e clones and 5e compatible. There is a bit about what they mean, what's going on, and about what to do about it and how to take advantage.

One thing that was a highlight for me was the idea that there needs to be a book from folks like Mike like the creator kit from darrington press, or a book about the creation of 5e and why certain things were done or better yet how. To date we mostly get little snippets and rumors.

The Beautiful Mess of 5e Gamehole Con Seminar – Lazy RPG Talk Show | The Lazy RPG Podcast - D&D and RPG News and GM Prep from Sly Flourish

A recording of the "Beautiful Mess of 5e" Gamehole Con seminar recorded on 15 October 2025 with Teos Abadia, Shawn Merwin, Mike Mearls, and Mike Shea. Links Subscribe to the Sly Flourish Newsletter Support Sly Flourish on Patreon Buy Sly Flourish Books

slyflourish.podbean.com

Some great insights in this podcast.

For example why were Hit Dice never used in other mechanics.

Fireball isn't actually stronger, Mearls argues with receipts.

Here are some notes from further down in the thread.

Commentary as I'm listening to it:

• "Blue Magic" design was part of what informed the design of Shield and Counterspell, since Mearls is a big Blue-style M:TG player. This could probably be a whole thread of its own, but the Blue playstyle is a big part of why I am not an M:TG fan. These spells being such annoyances shows that he was successful at this design....but maybe that the design has some issues....
• Modularity is a good idea because it helps isolate problematic design. This theme remains strong in the conversation, and they talk about some areas where some modularity might go a little too far (they mention the ship rules in Ghosts of Saltmarsh than then were not picked up for Spelljammer, where they'd be a logical fit)
• Challenge Rating as a "measurement" really helps codify some groups' issues with it. I'd have loved to see a version of D&D that doesn't have a CR.
• I love the point made about how DMs can filter through the "mess" pretty well, but D&D doesn't always equip DMs to do that, because D&D often is silent about the design logic behind its decisions. The DMG would logically be the place for this. 2024 makes it worse (ie: removing the monster-building math).
• Interesting to hear about Mearls's current evaluation of Fireball and other AOE spells. He mentions that the "doubling" (assuming two targets who both fail saves) to calculate the damage value of spells like this was probably wrong, and that he actually add about 70% to the base damage rather than 100%, based on his play experience.
• Fascinating to hear the comparison between M:TG's "strategy" and D&D's "lack of strategy." Mearls thinks this is a mistake, and posits that for fighting monsters, your strategy should be winning the action economy by focus-firing down monsters, and thus an AOE spell like Fireball doesn't help you that much. "Hypnotic Pattern is way worse than Fireball." This is another thing that might be worth blowing up into a whole thread, because I'm not 100% sure I'm on board with his strategy proposition...or if I am, I'm not sure that his proposed strategy is actually what we want (vs. just being what we wound up with).
• He also mentions that upcasting in general is way too low: proposes Fireball should go up by 2d6/level (to continue to be on par) and Magic Missile should go up by 3 darts per spell level
• The link between compatibility and modularity is curious. Shea talks about combining LevelUp5e (calls out the Supply system & the exploration system) with 2014 5e with Tales of the Valiant's luck system (which he really loves) and doom points (which he also loves, as an alternative to legendary resistance, because they let you do other things). This is something I love about 5e's mess.
• Shea mentions that subclasses are one of the areas that AREN'T very modular. Which, yeah! Maybe they should be more modular!
• There's some rulings-vs-rules conversation where Mearls comes out swinging with "I don't think role playing games are games, they are an activity." I'm following his logic here, and it's a very interesting lens to look at D&D design through.
• Some gushing about Advantage and how it's binary (and I agree in a huge way - and am annoyed by the constant guidance/bless that I'm seeing).

 

[aco175]

2.3 million downloads in 9 hours- Great Jupiter Batman!

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

I think that's for the whole podcast of 640 episodes. It looks like 1.8 thousand for that individual episode.

 

[darjr]

Some great insights in this podcast.

For example why were Hit Dice never used in other mechanics.

Fireball isn't actually stronger, Mearls argues with receipts.

Etc, def a good listen!

 

[aco175]

I think that's for the whole podcast of 640 episodes. It looks like 1.8 thousand for that individual episode.

Well, that brings him back to normal person in my coolness mind.

 

[Zaukrie]

A gamehole panel. Recorded by Mike Shea.

The Beautiful Mess of 5e Gamehole Con Seminar – Lazy RPG Talk Show | The Lazy RPG Podcast - D&D and RPG News and GM Prep from Sly Flourish

A recording of the "Beautiful Mess of 5e" Gamehole Con seminar recorded on 15 October 2025 with Teos Abadia, Shawn Merwin, Mike Mearls, and Mike Shea. Links Subscribe to the Sly Flourish Newsletter Support Sly Flourish on Patreon Buy Sly Flourish Books

slyflourish.podbean.com

Dang. Might have to listen.

 

[darjr]

Dang. Might have to listen.

I got to ask a few questions. I was one of two who raised their hand at being in a current AD&D game.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fireball isn't actually stronger, Mearls argues with receipts.

That’s surprising, I’m pretty sure it was him who originally made the claim that it was.

 

[Zaukrie]

That’s surprising, I’m pretty sure it was him who originally made the claim that it was.

He's talked a lot about learning from their mistakes.

 

[darjr]

That’s surprising, I’m pretty sure it was him who originally made the claim that it was.

That's brought up, lol. And he says he was wrong.