D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[AnotherGuy]

...
One messy subclass... Years ago. If that is all you have, the system' design is not that bad.

I have more but that subclass didn't need anyone with math or testing to see it was bad.

 

[overgeeked]

This is the issue with D&D, and likely any game that strives to be the 'kleenex' of RPGs.

There is no possible way to 'balance' the game around

1. True Casuals.
2. Total RPG Theatre Kids who dont care at all about being effective.
3. Min-Max, Multiclass Dipping, Rules Lawyer Power Gamers.

Now, those may not all be at the same table, but if the game allows for all 3 to exist, and more besides, no way can it possibly be 'balanced' for all 3.

Instead, it all falls on the DM to balance the table, and encounters, but then Wizards doesnt even give you the rules for monster creation...oops.

I think the problem is fairly obvious. The casuals and theater kids aren't causing balance problems because of the design. The power gamers are trying to break the game and win during character creation. That's the problem. You can solve it one of three ways. One, don't play with them. Two, play a rules light game that doesn't have the hyper-detailed character creation rules they need to do their thing. Three, make all character creation choices mechanically equivalent.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Now, the artificer/abjurer who broke the game with a ridiculous AC was a far larger issue AFAIC.

I have an Artificer but he's the generous type and not a min/maxer so he's dolled out most of his infusions, but I can see how it could be an issue.
But what's your PCs AC and how does the Abjurer play any roll in the AC as any wizard class allows for Shield or are you referring to the temp hit points?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I have more but that class didn't need anyone with math or testing to see it was bad.

Or a better rule for THP... (going away after a short rest).

 

[James Gasik]

It's funny. I had a twilight cleric in my campaign. Now, the campaign only went to 8th level, so, maybe the problems occur later, but, I never saw the issue. Sure, tons of healing. Who cares? It's not like that was a big deal anyway. I had zero problems with the Twilight cleric. Now, the artificer/abjurer who broke the game with a ridiculous AC was a far larger issue AFAIC. Or the Order of Scribes wizard who lied to me about how his spells worked and allowed him to cast every spell as force damage was a much larger issue.

I've never understood why Twilight Clerics get so much bad press. There are so many other ways to break the game and make it very unfun. Giving more HP to the party? Fantastic, I can pile on bigger baddies and not have to worry about it. Great!

I haven't played with a Twilight Cleric, but as I understand it, a big complaint isn't so much that they are busted (though they might force a DM to use more specialized tactics if they did find them a problem at their table), but that they are so much better than most (or arguably) all other subclass choices. This isn't unique to the Cleric class, of course. 2014 especially labored with some subclasses being head and shoulders above others (though which ones, in particular, is, as usual, subject to much debate).

 

[Zardnaar]

I haven't played with a Twilight Cleric, but as I understand it, a big complaint isn't so much that they are busted (though they might force a DM to use more specialized tactics if they did find them a problem at their table), but that they are so much better than most (or arguably) all other subclass choices. This isn't unique to the Cleric class, of course. 2014 especially labored with some subclasses being head and shoulders above others (though which ones, in particular, is, as usual, subject to much debate).

It took one of the best classes and obsoleted everything.

Made an easy game even easier. The DM is basically screwed/bored.

Conceptually its great. Execution 3.5.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Made an easy game even easier.

Quoted for truth

 

[Horwath]

5d6 at 5th level.

3d6 in effect is the 5E fireball. Maybe 4d6 conversing isn't exact.

A great 5E fireball would need to inflict 16 d6 damage. To match a weak 2E one it would need to deal 10d6 base. And top out around 20-30d6 damage.

A good 5E fireball probably needs free upcasting/ 2d6 per level upcast.

Instant damage x2 over sustained damage maybe X3.
We had this conversation a few days ago irrc.

Mearls has spotted the same problem.

I have merged fireball and scorching ray into a single spell:

Fireball:
2nd level evocation:
range 150ft
4d6 fire damage, 15ft radius
Dex save for half

you can reduce radius by 5ft to increase damage by +1d6
reducing radius to zero makes it a spell ranged attack spell. No save.
so at 2nd level reducing radius makes it:
5d6,radius 10ft
6d6, radius 5ft
7d6, ranged spell attack.

Upcasting:
3rd level: 8d6, radius 20ft, 12d6 ranged spell attack
4th level: 10d6, radius 25ft, 15d6 ranged spell attack
5th level: 12d6, radius 30ft, 18d6 ranged spell attack
6th level: 16d6, radius 35ft, 23d6 ranged spell attack
7th level: 18d6, radius 40ft, 26d6 ranged spell attack
8th level: 20d6, radius 45ft, 29d6 ranged spell attack
9th level: 24d6, radius 50ft, 34d6 ranged spell attack

you can use every 5 ft reduction for +1d6 damage or just use two end results for simplicity.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It's funny. I had a twilight cleric in my campaign. Now, the campaign only went to 8th level, so, maybe the problems occur later, but, I never saw the issue. Sure, tons of healing. Who cares? It's not like that was a big deal anyway. I had zero problems with the Twilight cleric. Now, the artificer/abjurer who broke the game with a ridiculous AC was a far larger issue AFAIC. Or the Order of Scribes wizard who lied to me about how his spells worked and allowed him to cast every spell as force damage was a much larger issue.

I've never understood why Twilight Clerics get so much bad press. There are so many other ways to break the game and make it very unfun. Giving more HP to the party? Fantastic, I can pile on bigger baddies and not have to worry about it. Great!

Same in my Saltmarsh campaign, Twilight cleric, I was not that much of an issue, the fights were still pretty tough.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

RIGHT!

They should have many more dice when upcast. It doesn't scale because they made a mistake. A magic missile that's 12d4 is a very different beast than one that is 7d4.

So maybe we should just use 2xdice when we upscale instant damage spells.

Seems reasonable. They are probably still not great. But more usable.

That would make burning hands 7d6 at level 5. Still worse than fireball.
I´d still rule +1die extra on class level 5 (level 1 and 2 spells), 11 (level 1 to 5 spells) and 17 (level 1 to 8 spells) for free.

With that rule, burning hands cast at spell level 3 would be 8d6. Same as fireball. I guess that is not terrible.