D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

I listened to many of @SlyFlourish episodes about mixing and matching the different 5Es. I also listened to this panel. I kinda long for a "one true version" instead of the mess we have now.
I have a couple players who love A5e player options. I want to use the minions from Flee Mortals. Others want 2014. Then I could use like 3 different encounter building rules and never know what level of challenge to expect.
Then I run old adventures and they're not quite right.
"Mess" is right. I don't want to carry a dozen books or reference a score of PDFs to do my prep. I don't see this as a good thing.
I think, unfortunately, the only way you’ll be able to get that is to make a call about what source(s) are available to use, and just say, that’s what we’re using. Save your ideas about characters using material from another sourcebook for another campaign, for this one we’re sticking to just [insert your source of preference here].”
 

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We have an Expertise Die (d6) instead of doubling your proficiency.
this is a cool idea.
I am thinking about changing the dice rolled for expertise with a flat skill bonus. +2 sounds nice with raised floor.

IE: expertise, in addition to normal proficiency bonus changes d20 to d12+10.

so IE normal skill check would be with proficiency at 5th level with +4 mod at +7

no proficiency: d20+4, range 4-24
proficiency: d20+7, range 8-27
expertise: d12+17, range 18-29

at max skill level, prof bonus of +6 and +5 ability it would be
no proficiency: d20+5, range 6-25
proficiency: d20+11, range 12-31
expertise: d12+21, range 22-33

I might add skill mastery:
instead of d12+10, you roll d8+16
that would make top skill range d8+27, range 28-35

how to gain skill mastery?

at levels 8+ whenever you gain expertise, you can turn one expertise into skill mastery instead of gaining skill expertise.
 

Heh. Even with the power of a VTT behind me, my newbie player STILL struggles with his battlemaster fighter. And this is a player who played an entire Phandelver campaign with me and is now halfway through Out of the Abyss.

I mean, it really can't get much easier when you're using a VTT. So many things are automated. But, STILL every single time he wants to use his maneuvers, I have to double check everything he does. Add in the effects of weapons like Vex and whatnot? Yikes. I'm trying to be as patient as I can, but, every now and again, I need to resist the urge to reach through the Internet and stab him in the eye out of frustration. :p

((Sorry, just REALLY needed to vent about that))
one minus of VTT is that DM cant throw dice at players that dont remember their characters abilities, hehehe.
Fortunately, we managed to steer him clear of playing a Druid who specialized in summoning at the outset of the campaign. I would have lost my freaking mind.

So, yeah, there is definitely room for simplification.
this is true, however there is a lot more room for L2P also.
 

I make no claims to it being simpler. It just makes how the proficiency mechanic works more obvious, which I consider a significant benefit. Also, while 1d20+7 is obviously simpler than 1d20+2d4+3, the +7 is only written down for the bog-standard ability/skill combinations. I’m a DM who makes heavy use of the “skills with different ability scores” optional rule, and in fact don’t like that skills even have a default ability score they’re connected to. And in my experience most players find 1d20+2d4+3 much easier than 1d20+[2•2]+3, particularly when they are stuck thinking of their expertise skill as a flat +7 instead of as double their proficiency bonus being added to a d20+3 roll.
I'm starting to think it might actually just be simpler to never add constants, and just build dice pools.

Stat progression is 0, +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, +1d10, +1d12. Proficiency starts at +d4 and goes to +d12.
 

I listened to many of @SlyFlourish episodes about mixing and matching the different 5Es. I also listened to this panel. I kinda long for a "one true version" instead of the mess we have now.
I have a couple players who love A5e player options. I want to use the minions from Flee Mortals. Others want 2014. Then I could use like 3 different encounter building rules and never know what level of challenge to expect.
Then I run old adventures and they're not quite right.
"Mess" is right. I don't want to carry a dozen books or reference a score of PDFs to do my prep. I don't see this as a good thing.

I think trying to incorporate too many different sources right at the beginning of a new campaign is probably too much for a lot of people. If I'm doing something like this, I'm going to start with one game in its entirety, whether that's D&D 2024 or Tales of the Valiant or LevelUp, and just sticking with that core. After having playing awhile with those rules, if there is really a rough patch that is sticking out for myself and my players, then I'll go looking to the other sources for house rules.
 

I'm starting to think it might actually just be simpler to never add constants, and just build dice pools.

Stat progression is 0, +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, +1d10, +1d12. Proficiency starts at +d4 and goes to +d12.
I think one flat mod coming from ability score is fine. The nice thing about flat mods is that they help counteract the swinginess of the d20. Proficiency dice do bring more swing into action resolution, as instead of, say, a 6-25 range for a proficient check with your primary ability at 1st level, you get a 2-27 range. Same average, but less reliability (which is what I disliked about the mechanic originally) and a higher maximum.
 

I listened to many of @SlyFlourish episodes about mixing and matching the different 5Es. I also listened to this panel. I kinda long for a "one true version" instead of the mess we have now.
I have a couple players who love A5e player options. I want to use the minions from Flee Mortals. Others want 2014. Then I could use like 3 different encounter building rules and never know what level of challenge to expect.
Then I run old adventures and they're not quite right.
"Mess" is right. I don't want to carry a dozen books or reference a score of PDFs to do my prep. I don't see this as a good thing.
IDK, I find it pretty easy to mix and match. However, I can guess by the description of your games I am not as constrained by outside forces as you are. Heck, I can play 5e on the fly with just the improve rules from the DMG.
 

I think one flat mod coming from ability score is fine. The nice thing about flat mods is that they help counteract the swinginess of the d20. Proficiency dice do bring more swing into action resolution, as instead of, say, a 6-25 range for a proficient check with your primary ability at 1st level, you get a 2-27 range. Same average, but less reliability (which is what I disliked about the mechanic originally) and a higher maximum.
While it's kind of a neat idea, the problem I have with the proficiency a PC may have with a skill being represented by a die is that trained skill is treated as a swingy part of the result rather than providing reliable stability. In fact, no matter how proficient a master might get (from +1d4 to +1d12), the higher skill never escapes the possibility of adding no more to the result than the trained neophyte. And that seems conceptually wrong to me.
Honestly, IF one of the two non-d20 components were to be random, I'd be more willing to put it on the stat modifier side because it should be less reliable than training.
 
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I have had experience with a player being confused about their proficiency bonus and what it applied to in the past. But I don't think it's really any worse than remembering something like a Base Attack Bonus.

What does occasionally cause confusion that I can understand is recalling what your PB should be, since it advances every four levels but doesn't include the 1st level. In 4e, you knew you added half your level to everything, for example. When I finally got a +4 PB, I actually forgot about it for half a session until someone commented that the save DC's for my spells seemed off!

There's a few other things that advance at odd intervals, like cantrips upgrading at level 5, 11, and 17, (or Fighter extra attacks set at levels 5, 11, and 20, but at least that's right there in your special abilities so hard to miss).
 

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