D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not really. An AD&D troll maxes out at 25 points of damage in a round. It's a typical enemy for a 5th level party or so - and even a 3rd level fighter can fairly easily take that, at least for one round. And, note, most monsters, outside of maybe a few very high level outliers, max out their damage at about 25 points per round, maybe 30. And, again, we're talking a fighter with probably an AC of 0 by 5th level (full plate and shield is 1, give a +1 dex bonus with a 15 Dex - not unheard of), the troll is only hitting about 1 in 4 attacks.

Sure, at 1st level, you could die fairly easily. By 4th or 5th though, it was hard to kill a PC in combat. Again, the plethora of SoD effects greatly ramped up PC deaths. Heck, even a small giant spider had a death attack. But death by HP? Not so much.

Eh, you will not want to get anywhere NEAR a bulette then! They have a max damage output of 84 points, and with 9 hit dice that's a hit on AC0 on an 11, so even the AVERAGE DPR is more than 25. There are quite a few other examples, and MANY creatures that can get a bit lucky and do 40 points to your level 5 fighter, which is pretty much fatal (even granting a +2 CON bonus and maxed level 1 hit points you still only have 40 at level 5). This of course all assumes you are getting attacked by ONE monster, but with common monsters having No. Appearing up into the 100's that isn't a safe assumption.

 

[Hussar]

Eh, you will not want to get anywhere NEAR a bulette then! They have a max damage output of 84 points, and with 9 hit dice that's a hit on AC0 on an 11, so even the AVERAGE DPR is more than 25. There are quite a few other examples, and MANY creatures that can get a bit lucky and do 40 points to your level 5 fighter, which is pretty much fatal (even granting a +2 CON bonus and maxed level 1 hit points you still only have 40 at level 5). This of course all assumes you are getting attacked by ONE monster, but with common monsters having No. Appearing up into the 100's that isn't a safe assumption.

There are exceptions of course. I believe some of the dinosaurs got up into those numbers as well. The majority don't. I'd point out that in 2e (I don't have the 1e numbers) a Bulette is worth more XP than most dragons. Not a surprise that it might be a pretty heavy hitter.

Hundreds appearing though, meant in a lair, not in one encounter generally. But, really, the reason you could face 1-12 trolls at a time was because 1 troll wasn't really a challenge for a party. Certainly not a standard party of 6-8 PC's.

 

[pemerton]

All classes have plenty of damage potential, even the non-strikers. Some of that potential is in encounters & dailies, and some comes from party synergy.

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In 4e, the way powers and the action economy were designed, you couldn't do a true Nova in which you just flushed all your most powerful resources up front, and reduced the entire encounter to an Initiative contest. That was a great improvement, but one that a lot of folks had trouble accepting. What they came up with as a 4e Nova was the Alpha Strike: leading with an action point (preferably in some synergistic comb) and blowing through high-damage encounters ASAP.

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a poorly conceived or executed Alpha Strike or an encounter with an unexpected twist can result in the Alpha Striking party severely disadvantaging themselves. A winnable encounter can even become a TPK as a result.

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the way hps work make focus fire arguably the best of available simple tactics in all versions of D&D. But that doesn't make them the best tactic, every time, and sometimes, they turn out to be a terrible tactic.

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Leaning too heavily on early-round offense depletes the party's offense resources at a time when they may be at a disadvantage, and leaves them nothing but plinking with at wills to grind down the monsters.

These are all very good points.

Everything else being equal, focus fire obviously makes sense, but quite often everything else is not equal. It might be more important to exercise widespread control, for instance, rather than having all the PCs target a single enemy.

 

[Manbearcat]

Eh, you will not want to get anywhere NEAR a bulette then! They have a max damage output of 84 points, and with 9 hit dice that's a hit on AC0 on an 11, so even the AVERAGE DPR is more than 25. There are quite a few other examples, and MANY creatures that can get a bit lucky and do 40 points to your level 5 fighter, which is pretty much fatal (even granting a +2 CON bonus and maxed level 1 hit points you still only have 40 at level 5). This of course all assumes you are getting attacked by ONE monster, but with common monsters having No. Appearing up into the 100's that isn't a safe assumption.

There are exceptions of course. I believe some of the dinosaurs got up into those numbers as well. The majority don't. I'd point out that in 2e (I don't have the 1e numbers) a Bulette is worth more XP than most dragons. Not a surprise that it might be a pretty heavy hitter.

Hundreds appearing though, meant in a lair, not in one encounter generally. But, really, the reason you could face 1-12 trolls at a time was because 1 troll wasn't really a challenge for a party. Certainly not a standard party of 6-8 PC's.

The top-heavy AC and comparatively meek scaling of that AC seemed to break down the standard treadmill of D&D monsters in AD&D to, generally, 3 varieties:

1) The 17-19 Thac0 guys that would break upon the wall of the mighty AD&D Fighter (especially if they qualified for the #att buffing mook rules in either 1e or 2e...then it would get really silly). Orcs, Humans, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Skeletons, even Drow. The easy, default AC for an AD&D Fighter being somewhere between 1 to -2 trivialized these guys from the get go.

2) The 11-13 Thac0 guys that might catch you with a lucky claw/claw/bite flurry + stray crit might scare you. Scaling of AC in AD&D for the Fighter is starting to show a ...chink in your armor ...but you're still stout enough to carry the day due to your nicely scaling attack rate and saving throws. These are your Trolls, Umber Hulks, Manticores, Griffons, Hags, Helmed Horrors.

3) The 5-9 Thac0 guys. These guys are dangerous. While your STs and # att are still scaling beautifully, your once impervious AC is now in play pretty regularly (even at - 7 for the lower tier guys). And when these guys hit...it's gonna leave a mark. These are your Giants, Golems, Renders and onward from there.

There were a couple scary ones that didn't fit the mold. Among the Brutes/Soldiers (non SoS/SoD guys) that used to strike fear into players I ran games for were Owlbears, Hook Horrors, and the aforementioned Bulettes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are exceptions of course. I believe some of the dinosaurs got up into those numbers as well. The majority don't. I'd point out that in 2e (I don't have the 1e numbers) a Bulette is worth more XP than most dragons. Not a surprise that it might be a pretty heavy hitter.

Hundreds appearing though, meant in a lair, not in one encounter generally. But, really, the reason you could face 1-12 trolls at a time was because 1 troll wasn't really a challenge for a party. Certainly not a standard party of 6-8 PC's.

Well, I don't think one troll is a huge challenge to level 5 PCs, no, but its not trivial either. Its probably not going to kill the fighter, but it would rip the thief or the magic user a new one right quick, and certainly 2-3 trolls, given that you have to go through some song-and-dance to make them stay dead, is a serious matter, one that at the very least warrants the breaking out of a few spells. Remember too, said level 5 fighter, though he may hit slightly more than a troll on the average, does LESS damage than one (maybe 1d12+3 or so, maybe less). IIRC a troll is a 6+6 HD creature, they output 20 average damage, AC4, etc. One is a pretty even match for a level 5 fighter, and they've got % in lair of 40% and # appearing of 1-12. So chances are quite good that each party member will have his own troll to play with.

Your basic 4e troll is a level 9 brute with a speed of 8, reach 2, and does 18 damage on a hit. Its not the most fearsome monster for its level, but they do have regen 5 and the 'stand up when dead unless burned' thing. Certainly a level 5 party taking on 5 basic trolls would be well-advised to look really sharp. They're mostly going to win, the troll's damage output is pretty modest for a brute, but it will probably hurt a bunch. Toss in some sort of a leader and its going to be extra not-pretty.

Now, add a couple extra trolls or how about toss in a few Ogre Hunters (a nice level 7 skirmisher with a decent ranged attack), cast this encounter in a region of the underdark where vents spout fire, add some bloodstone, and give the party a goal of getting out of the area quickly with or without killing off all the bad guys. Now this is an interesting encounter, and one that could reward a variety of different approaches.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The top-heavy AC and comparatively meek scaling of that AC seemed to break down the standard treadmill of D&D monsters in AD&D to, generally, 3 varieties:

1) The 17-19 Thac0 guys that would break upon the wall of the mighty AD&D Fighter (especially if they qualified for the #att buffing mook rules in either 1e or 2e...then it would get really silly). Orcs, Humans, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Skeletons, even Drow. The easy, default AC for an AD&D Fighter being somewhere between 1 to -2 trivialized these guys from the get go.

2) The 11-13 Thac0 guys that might catch you with a lucky claw/claw/bite flurry + stray crit might scare you. Scaling of AC in AD&D for the Fighter is starting to show a ...chink in your armor ...but you're still stout enough to carry the day due to your nicely scaling attack rate and saving throws. These are your Trolls, Umber Hulks, Manticores, Griffons, Hags, Helmed Horrors.

3) The 5-9 Thac0 guys. These guys are dangerous. While your STs and # att are still scaling beautifully, your once impervious AC is now in play pretty regularly (even at - 7 for the lower tier guys). And when these guys hit...it's gonna leave a mark. These are your Giants, Golems, Renders and onward from there.

There were a couple scary ones that didn't fit the mold. Among the Brutes/Soldiers (non SoS/SoD guys) that used to strike fear into players I ran games for were Owlbears, Hook Horrors, and the aforementioned Bulettes.

Nobody has mentioned dragons, and for good reason. High to very high damage output in an AoE. BAD BAD NEWS! Obviously these were pretty fearsome beasts, not something you got into a random melee with, at least not the tougher ones, and even the milder forms were something to take note of below double-digit levels.

 

[Manbearcat]

Nobody has mentioned dragons, and for good reason. High to very high damage output in an AoE. BAD BAD NEWS! Obviously these were pretty fearsome beasts, not something you got into a random melee with, at least not the tougher ones, and even the milder forms were something to take note of below double-digit levels.

Yeah. Unfortunately, AD&D dragons tipped off the giant, flying, breath weapon and spellcaster lizards shtick. By comparison, their melee threat was impotent for even the mighty red (unfortunately). Yet another area of "Best Thing from 4e." Dragons are absolutely awesome, well-rounded, engines of elemental destruction whose claws/bites/wing buffets/tail slaps (and the action economy that goes with it) are just as fearsome as their breath weapons and magic. And they're diverse in the way they manifest on the battlefield because of their routines.

Also, regarding the prior conversation, in the most recent "work day" of my current Dungeon World game, the scenes (mapped to 4e) would be something like this:

1) Social Skill Challenge

2) Level + 4 combat featuring Winter Fey antagonists in the dead of night, on a frozen peat bug in the middle of winter. Primary enemies would be a flying Braelani (Solo Controller, Leader), who has a "Wind Wall" Aura (probably - 2 to hit with ranged attacks and slide on enemies that end their turn in the aura), a "bamfing" Fey Knight, and air elemental minions that the Braelani summons. A generous portion of the encounter budget would be "Thawing, Sucking Peat Bog" Hazards that would be DT, attack Fort, put damage and a movement based static effect on you (save ends), and probably have Athletics/Endurance/Nature as counters. The Bralani would be sliding enemies into the hazards and hits them with cold based attacks that deliver status effects and buffing the Fey Knight. The "bamfing" Fey Knight would obviously be an Elite Skirmisher.

3) A Pursuit Skill Challenge

4) Another short combat, 1 vs 1 with the Bloodied Braelani as you try to prevent her from murdering innocents (Minions)

5) Social Skill Challenge that turns violent

6) Perilous Journey Skill Challenge

7) Social Skill Challenge

The Ranger in my Dungeon World game contributed proficiently to all of these scenes. I'm thinking that a 4e Ranger specced very narrowly for Nova/DPR (either melee, bow, or hybrid) would struggle mightily to effectively contribute throughout the course of that workday (which is common in my games). A 4e Ranger specced somewhat broadly (such as the 4e version of Saerie that was brought up earlier in this thread...and it is pretty trivial to do it in 4e given the multitude and variety of PC build components) would have no problem being a proper protagonist throughout a work day composed of those 7 scenes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah. Unfortunately, AD&D dragons tipped off the giant, flying, breath weapon and spellcaster lizards shtick. By comparison, their melee threat was impotent for even the mighty red (unfortunately). Yet another area of "Best Thing from 4e." Dragons are absolutely awesome, well-rounded, engines of elemental destruction whose claws/bites/wing buffets/tail slaps (and the action economy that goes with it) are just as fearsome as their breath weapons and magic. And they're diverse in the way they manifest on the battlefield because of their routines.

Eh, an ancient, huge, red dragon in 1e melees as a 22HD creature (so it almost auto-hits AC0, though chances are its primary opponents will be more in the -5 range, even those won't be MUCH of a challenge to hit). They don't put out a super high single-turn damage with their melee attacks, but this dragon will do about 25 damage per round with its melee attacks. Given the stupidly powerful nature of its breath weapon (most level 10 PCs on average will be killed EVEN IF THEY SAVE) it doesn't really make too much difference.

Now, in terms of being an exciting opponent that can do a variety of things... I agree, AD&D 1e dragons are rather one-trick ponies. They COULD be spell-casters, which makes things quite a bit more interesting, but flying and having a massive damage AoE is pretty much their thing. Melee with a 4e dragon is definitely a LOT more interesting, though you do have to be careful about the setup of your solos.

 

[Manbearcat]

Eh, an ancient, huge, red dragon in 1e melees as a 22HD creature (so it almost auto-hits AC0, though chances are its primary opponents will be more in the -5 range, even those won't be MUCH of a challenge to hit). They don't put out a super high single-turn damage with their melee attacks, but this dragon will do about 25 damage per round with its melee attacks. Given the stupidly powerful nature of its breath weapon (most level 10 PCs on average will be killed EVEN IF THEY SAVE) it doesn't really make too much difference.

Now, in terms of being an exciting opponent that can do a variety of things... I agree, AD&D 1e dragons are rather one-trick ponies. They COULD be spell-casters, which makes things quite a bit more interesting, but flying and having a massive damage AoE is pretty much their thing. Melee with a 4e dragon is definitely a LOT more interesting, though you do have to be careful about the setup of your solos.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. An Ancient Red Dragon is no slouch in melee. It is that just that 1d10 * 2 and 3d10 * 1 @ 95% to hit (roughly 25 damage as you have above) + making yourself available to be attacked (even if your AC is - 11) by melee-dependent classes doesn't quite achieve parity against being a 9th level flying-wizard-lizard-tank with a howitzer that can pop off two Fireballs and two Ice Storms (while achieving outright action denial to melee-dependent classes or nerfing them into laugh-worthy ranged attacks)! And of course, neither compares at all to 24d10+12 save for 1/2!

Conversely, a 4e Red's melee is every bit as devastating (and tactically enjoyable to run in melee with the melee control including the Triggered Action of Tail Strike) as its ability to immolate you at range with mastery of the elemental force of fire or its breath weapon. And honestly, at Bloodied you may not want to be in Bite Range! You're looking at 30 OG fire while grabbed with a DC of probably 37 to escape! No thank you!

 

[pemerton]

Yet another area of "Best Thing from 4e." Dragons are absolutely awesome, well-rounded, engines of elemental destruction whose claws/bites/wing buffets/tail slaps (and the action economy that goes with it) are just as fearsome as their breath weapons and magic. And they're diverse in the way they manifest on the battlefield because of their routines.

I've never been a huge fan of dragons, as a GM. (My players know to expect demons and undead, and not too many dragons.)

In 4e, as best I can recall, I've had three dragon combats over 29 levels.

At around 4th or 5th the PCs fought a black dragon (from the original MM). It had to close from range, and they took advantage of that to get off a few shots. It then engaged them in melee and used darkness to good effect, but the wizard had an elven statue of the Summer Queen in his possession, and he used his actions to make Arcana checks (of increasing degrees of difficulty) to dispel the dragon's darkness every time it got put up again.

The actual terrain involved a temple portico, with pillars, and stairs from one level to another, that factored into the positioning.

At that time, it was the best dragon encounter I'd run in many years of GMing (the only one that sticks in my memory from prior to that is when an elven PC got frozen solid by the cold crit from the Rolemaster implementation of the shadow dragon in a dungeon in the module Five Shall Be One).

The next was with Calastryx. It was pretty dramatic, and climaxed with Calastryx getting defeated by the breath weapon of a dragonling familiar (Thunderwave from above driving Calastryx to the ground, allowing the fighter to lock her down and kill her).

The third was an aerial assault by dragons on the PCs Thundercloud Tower while flying through the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl. It turns out dragons are quite good at aerial assaults, although once the figher leapt from the tower onto the dragon's back that was pretty much it for the dragon.

(That turns out to be around one every 10 levels - 4th or 5th, 15th, 26th.)

I haven't been moved to try and pick up the Draconomicons, but they were pretty exciting combats.