The Cosmology of Eberron

[Mac Callum]

Oh, and I'm definately keeping the City of Brass on Fernia - a city that goes on and on for hundreds of miles (but not where the Magma Dragons have their lairs).

And Superman definately has his Fortress of Solitude on Risia

Mac Callum

 

[Kobold Avenger]

At one time Elysium & Arcadia were arbitrary names too. People got used to them. Now they're "standard" and the new names are arbitrary. Hmmm ... there may be a mental process at work here ...

Elysium and Arcadia were never arbitrary names, they actually come from real world mythology.

 

[Stone Dog]

Elysium and Arcadia were never arbitrary names, they actually come from real world mythology.

I think the point was that somebody had to make them up though at some point. If you go back far enough all names are arbitrary.

I'd rather have the new names than rehashing old and familiar ones myself. However I can see how people would rather stick with tried and true. I had an old timer player once who refused to call anything by the new names. He would even refer to demons and devils by "Type I" and so forth. He just wouldn't pay attention to the new terms. Then again I had to kick him out for not putting anything on his character sheet (No, I'm going to make you guess my alignment) and bothering everybody with eternal renderings of the Badger song, so maybe that isn't a good example.

Still, most of them have a different flavor to me than the Wheel planes and I am looking forward to seeing more of what the cosmology has to offer in next months Dragon.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The devils, demons, and celestials don't just stop and work things out because they can't; they lack the full free will of mortals, and are defined by the nature of their plane. This also reflects why one side can never actually win.

Wow......an eternal battle between Good and Evil, eh? I'm surprised no one has ever thought of that before!

I'm not saying it has to be flavorful, I'm saying it's pretty flavorless. This came up in a discussion on how Eberron represents Hell......that seemed to be the closest representation. And it seemed to be very lackluster, in comparison to Oerth's Hell and the proposed Hell. It doesn't reflect on the world at all other than to say "Good Hates Evil and Evil Hates Good and They Fight," which is very much a no-brainer kind of development.

Similarly a "death is sad" plane, or a "Nature...wow, it's got animals!" plane really don't intruige me in the slightest, because I've thought of more interesting planes while takin' a dump.

Now, with the stated goals for Eberron, it probably feeds into it to have really bland planes.......the world is interesting, and it's "D&D Logic," so the planes aren't that important. It doesn't HAVE to have interesting planes, and interesting planes could play at cross-purposes to it's inteneded goal. But the planes just ain't that interesting.

Daanavi: The "Wow, law sure is peaceful and likes geometry" plane
Dal Quor: The "OMG, dreamers make worlds, LOL" plane
Dolurrh: The "Death is sad : ' (" plane
Fernia: The "Fire, wow it's hot!" plane
Irian: The "Life is light" plane
Kythri: The "Chaos sure is cray-z!" plane
Lamannia: The "Bestial Nature" plane
Mabar: The "Darkness is spooky" plane
Risia: The "Mang, ice is coooold" plane
Shavarath: The "Boy, Good and Evil don't get along, do they?" plane
Syrania: The "Angels are purdy" plane
Thelanis: The "Faerie Magic" plane
Xoriat: The "Cthulhu Rip-Off" plane

Taken as a whole, I call it the "Duh" Cosmology.

That's not a reason to not buy Eberron, but it's not exactly exciting, envigorating, revolutionary, and something I've been looking for. Indeed, it's something I'd avoid, but the rest of the setting looks solid enough that I can ignore the planes, or just use the Wheel and have delicious flavor already there.

 

[Alzrius]

People keep saying that Xoriat is "the Far Realms by any other name". What's the basis for this? The Far Realms is:
* Outside the wheel.
* Inhabited by fundamentally unimaginable creatures (beings that "defy classification").

By contrast, I see Xoriat as more of an elemental plane of madness. It's *supposed* to be part of the wheel of this world. In addition, it has at least some creatures that can be understood -- specifically, mind flayers are supposed to come from Xoriat, and then there are the mysterious Daelkyr.

You're taking only the most semantic differences and painting them to be grand changes though. This is exactly what I meant when I said they were making skin-deep alterations and trying to paint them as sweeping changes.

Xoriat is "part of the wheel of this world" but in every way, shape, and form, it has the exact same function as the Far Realm - the last time Xoriat became coterminous was over 7,000 years ago, and it doesn't seem to be drifting back yet. It's a distant bogey-plane of insanity. The Far Realm also is a distant bogey-plane of insanity. Mind Flayers come from Xoriat, whee, brain collectors come from the Far Realm. So there are the Daelkyr of Xoriat, the Far Realm has its weird powerful beings too, just so far unnamed (and the Far Realm does have things like the kaorti).

What if the point of Xoriat is not to be an absolute mystery, but to provide an explanation for aberrations? Aberrations are generally dismissed as just being "weird creatures". What if, instead of being inchoate masses of writhing tentacles, the inhabitants of Xoriat are aberrations - which are after all creatures that don't obey the laws of nature? Or if those aberrations that don't actually come from Xoriat are creatures that have been touched by Xoriat?

The most infuriating words to hear when trying to debate something are "what if?". What if what if what if? What if Xoriat is actually a plane that's a giant floating sandwich, and the reason its so insane is because everyone forgot the mustard? There's absolutely nothing to back what you're suggesting with it being the plane of aberrations! Just because one aberration-type creature comes from there is no way indicative that they all do! I'll gladly debate this point when it has a shred of evidence to support it.

Also, some folks are saying "Oh, it's got the plane of water and the plane of fire... boring!" So, um, where IS the plane of Water? Or Earth? Or Air? The Lammania description says that plane is inhabited by Earth, Air, and Water elementals and mephits, along with genies, guardinals, hellcats (devils), and bebiliths (demons). So is this the plane of Earth, Air, Water, and Baator all at once? Or is it a sort of panelemental plane where nature exists in all forms -- pure element along with celestial and fiendish taints (as both celestial and fiendish animals are listed as inhabitants)?

That part is somewhat better - not all of their planes are blatant rip-offs, only some.

I certainly like the idea that celestials and fiends are not confines to their own planes -- "all demons come from Baator" -- but rather are part of the natural ecology of a variety of different planes.

We had celestials from all sorts of planes before too (astral devas anyone?) Likewise, the point of having demons be from one plane is that that is what made them "demons" as opposed to "evil Outsiders".

 

[I'm A Banana]

Oh, and to make sure I'm not totally negative in here, how about a seed idea for the Plane of Chaotic Evil Water?

* Jellyfish from this plane, and in this world, are not just jellyfish, but actually distilled sins, washed off in the sea, taking plasmic form. The PC's stumble upon a village upriver from the sea, a small logging town that is a stop on their journey, that few people visit, but that they feel inclined to stay the night at (perhaps some wicked river sahagin attacked them on their journey, and they want to make sure the town is OK). The people are happy there, but the true tragedy is revealed with the coming of night, as the river rises, and rises, and rises, and does not stop....soon, the water turns salty, and the sea is rushing inland, attacking the village itself, and sending in tide after tide of stinging jellyfish. It commences in an attack on the village by a half-fiend kraken, and the PC's battling it from rooftops as it flies and swims around them, unharmed by the stining sin in the water below....but why did it come? The truth probably lays in the old fisherman's artefact that he dredged up from the river, that has slowly been turning him corrupt.....and his daughter, panicked, worried, is the one person who knows where he keeps it...

 

[Hamburger Mary]

Wow......an eternal battle between Good and Evil, eh? I'm surprised no one has ever thought of that before!... It doesn't reflect on the world at all other than to say "Good Hates Evil and Evil Hates Good and They Fight," which is very much a no-brainer kind of development.

Where do you find anything in the description that say that good and evil fight because they hate one another? My point is that as it is written - and we are arguing over a very small amount of information - nothing says that the war is about good and evil. Unlike the Blood War, it is not implied that this is a war someone chose to start at some point in time, or one that could some day end. What it specifically says is that "warfare defines all aspects of their existence" and "the warfare never ends". Likewise, it specifies that slain soldiers eventually return, further perpetuating the war.

So as I see it, this is not about good and evil. It is about war. It takes the form of good and evil because those are core concepts of the universe (well, the D&D universe). Sure, it would be more imaginative if it was fiendish bunnies fighting celestial ducks, or modrons engaged in a subtle web of political intrigue, but one of the stated goals of Eberron is to provide a place and reason for the existence of creatures from the core rulebooks. For me, this gives a good reason for the existence of warlike outsiders: they are embodiments of the concept of war, shaped by the touch of good or evil. The celestials and devils of Lammania are shaped by the elemental nature of that plane. And I suspect that we will see a similar trend in the other planes: it's specifically mentioned that not all creatures on the "light" plane are good, so it would follow that not all creatures on the "dark" plane are bad.

Similarly a "death is sad" plane, or a "Nature...wow, it's got animals!" plane really don't intruige me in the slightest, because I've thought of more interesting planes while takin' a dump.

"Death is sad" is a fairly big generalization to make when all we have is a one-sentence description of the plane. As other folks have pointed out, that's a good general description of Hades, but doesn't mention the Elysian Fields, the Furies, the waters of Lethe, or any of the elements that make that afterlife interesting. And if it is the case that death is sad, that also raises the other issue of "Wow, so no matter what I do, I'm going to eternal misery when I die?" which has its own philosophical implications.

*shrug* Ultimately, I don't disagree with you. The planes are fairly straightforward. But I think that probably does serve the goals of the world. And I still find it to be more interesting than Baator (I guess I'm just missing the "delicious flavor" there, but to each their own).

The most infuriating words to hear when trying to debate something are "what if?"

With the tiny amount of information we have, it seems to me that it's just as much of a "what if" to say that it's just like the Far Realms. But my intention was not to say "I'm right and you're wrong", but rather to say "You may be jumping to conclusions -- here's another possible alternative." You're right, there is little data to support my aberration theory. What I was working from was:
* That stated goal of giving creatures a logical place in the world.
* On one of the WotC threads, Hellcow said that aberrations specifically had some sort of defined role.
* Mind flayers are iconic creatures, and are not normally extraplanar (although I may be again reading into things to assume that they are extraplanar here). If I'm correct, at least one aberation has been given a significantly different backstory tied to this plane. Baker also worked on Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Beholders, which painted those creatures as far more alien than usual.

*shrug* Again, it's all conjecture -- I assumed these boards were a place for discussion and conjecture, and if I was mistaken in that, my apologies.

That part is somewhat better - not all of their planes are blatant rip-offs, only some.

And it's one of the few planes that we get any sort of significant amount of information about, and even that is extremely limited. So there may be more twists to the other planes when we finally get all the info. Or not. Maybe they are all boring and derivitive. Just trying to look at the possible positives instead of dismissing things out of hand.

Jellyfish from this plane, and in this world, are not just jellyfish, but actually distilled sins, washed off in the sea, taking plasmic form.

Now, this is an excellent idea!

 

[Gez]

* Mind flayers are iconic creatures, and are not normally extraplanar (although I may be again reading into things to assume that they are extraplanar here). If I'm correct, at least one aberation has been given a significantly different backstory tied to this plane. Baker also worked on Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Beholders, which painted those creatures as far more alien than usual.

Actually, if you look at the 2e background books (The Illithiad for the mind-flayers, and I, Tyrant for the beholders), their extraplanar nature (for both) is blatant. Although it's not named yet, there's hint that illithids come from the Far Realms, and may be the descendants of human explorators having stumbled there and having been mutated in body and spirit. And then there's the whole astral empire of Penumbra.

Beholders similarly were supposed to come from someplace else, but in a less Lovecraftian, and more pulp-sci-fi, way. IIRC, they first arrived on the Forgotten Realms through a crashing mothership.

See also their roles in SpellJammer.

 

[Alzrius]

With the tiny amount of information we have, it seems to me that it's just as much of a "what if" to say that it's just like the Far Realms.

I wouldn't say that. The brief description they give of the plane is very much the same as that of the Far Realm. By contrast, nothing suggests its a "plane of aberrations".

But my intention was not to say "I'm right and you're wrong", but rather to say "You may be jumping to conclusions -- here's another possible alternative."

The thing of it was though that my conclusion, while it was jumped to, was a leap in the direction the text seemed to indicate. Yours seemed to come totally out of left field. To be fair though, you had your reasons, which I address below:

You're right, there is little data to support my aberration theory. What I was working from was:
* That stated goal of giving creatures a logical place in the world.
* On one of the WotC threads, Hellcow said that aberrations specifically had some sort of defined role.
* Mind flayers are iconic creatures, and are not normally extraplanar (although I may be again reading into things to assume that they are extraplanar here). If I'm correct, at least one aberation has been given a significantly different backstory tied to this plane. Baker also worked on Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Beholders, which painted those creatures as far more alien than usual.

Gez already summed up the mind flayer one quite nicely, so I needn't repeat that. On the first two...just saying the creatures have a "logical" place in no way means that all aberrations come from that plane (or even any plane). It just means they have a history and a reason for being where they are now. It's still a complete shot in the dark to say that Xoriar is the plane where all aberrations come from, unlike the Far Realm.

*shrug* Again, it's all conjecture -- I assumed these boards were a place for discussion and conjecture, and if I was mistaken in that, my apologies.

Why apologize? That's what we're doing. It's just that I want to conjecture with what seems most likely, not with "what ifs".

 

[~Johnny~]

In response to a much earlier comment:

My gripe is simply that they break a common rule of fiction - don't make up foreign-sounding words merely for the sake of having foreign-sounding words. Such constructed things are a pain in the neck, as they don't give you mnemonic support. It is a small, petty gripe, I admit.

Stone Dog mentioned this already, but I'll add some flavor. Human civilization is relatively "new" in this campaign setting. Older civilizations (like goblins, hobgoblins, elves and giants) have been dealing with these places for a long time, and the names for these planes are probably derived from these languages. So it's internally consistent. But who cares anyway? It's flavor! These people don't speak English, so focusing on the etymology of words doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well ask that it be called "Main Continent" instead of Khorvaire and "planet" instead of Eberron.

Now, something more current:

It's still a complete shot in the dark to say that Xoriar is the plane where all aberrations come from, unlike the Far Realm.

I'm not at all familiar with the Far Realm, but I am familiar with the way Keith Baker created Eberron. He has said that aberrations in Eberron share an origin more defined than "magical experiments gone wrong." Previously, I guessed that they came from the Mourning. But the moment I read about Xoriat, I thought, "So this is how aberrations ended up on Eberron." Given that one aberration (mind flayers) came to Eberron 7,000 years ago from Xoriat, and the comment that aberrations have a common origin, I'm actually 99% certain that this is (part of) Xoriat's role.