D&D 5E The curious case of the double-dragon sorcerer

So according to you, if you ignore the general stat increases, a Battle Master does grow weaker as he levels and learns more Maneuvers?
A mixed sorcerer does not sacrifice anything. He can be as offensive focused as the double sorcerer and in addition can also have a better defense when needed, a ability the double sorcerer lacks. There is no way in which not having an option is a advantage over having the option with no downside.

The type of people who would take a double dragon just to eliminate the elemental resistance cost probably wouldn't make a battle master to begin with.

A mixed sorcerer is not sacrificing anything in your viewpoint. To the viewpoint of others, a mixed sorcerer would be sacrificing some offensive power for defensive purposes when the sorcerer has no guarantee that the defensive power would even come into play by the time it ran out. Dragonborn don't have the problem of their elemental resistance wearing off, and their elemental resistance doesn't cost anything.
 
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By this logic, the sorcerer class would be just fine if we removed metamagic entirely and only allowed them to spend sorcery points on spell slots. Think of all the sorcery points you'd save by not mucking about with those silly metamagic options!

I don't think you'd find a lot of supporters for such a plan.

Nice strawman.

I specifically mentioned the use of metamagic feats in my discussion of applying sorcery points to offensive power. Sacrificing metamagic would sacrifice offensive power, especially given the fact they are both so few in number (again, choice limitation) and incredibly useful for an offensive spellcaster build.
 

Derren

Hero
The type of people who would take a double dragon just to eliminate the elemental resistance cost wouldn't make a battle master to begin with. So, yes, for them, all of those maneuvers are a waste and a potential weakness... thus, why they would instead make a champion.

A mixed sorcerer is not sacrificing anything in your viewpoint. To the viewpoint of others, a mixed sorcerer would be sacrificing some offensive power for defensive purposes when the sorcerer has no guarantee that the defensive power would even come into play by the time it ran out. Dragonborn don't have the problem of their elemental resistance wearing off, and their elemental resistance doesn't cost anything.

...
Please tell me exactly what what a red/blue dragonborn sorcerer sacrifices compared to a red/red one? Not a thing. For both the fire resistance would not run out at no cost. But the red/blue one can get lightning resistance in addition when this turns out the better option, something the double sorcerer simply can not do what makes him weaker despite the combination being more thematically fitting. And if lightning resistance never ever is needed in the whole game, the mixed sorcerer is still absolutely equal the the double sorcerer with no disadvantage at all.
 

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Please tell me exactly what what a red/blue dragonborn sorcerer sacrifices compared to a red/red one? Not a thing. For both the fire resistance would not run out at no cost. But the red/blue one can get lightning resistance in addition when this turns out the better option, something the double sorcerer simply can not do what makes him weaker despite the combination being more thematically fitting. And if lightning resistance never ever is needed in the whole game, the mixed sorcerer is still absolutely equal the the double sorcerer with no disadvantage at all.

And now you're asking me to repeat myself.

I answered your question and already dealt with what you said in the following posts:

Post 1

Post 2

Post 3

Please feel free to reread those posts at your leisure.

Now, with this next part, I am going to both repeat myself yet again and make it a point to show you why it is they don't necessarily work out to be equal.

Also, the part you say is that a mixed-sorcerer can get lightning resistance. The mixed sorcerer won't always get it. It's an ability that relies on a point expenditure for what amounts to a gamble that it will be useful, as opposed to saving the point spent on each time for offensive magic that is guaranteed to be useful. And you're forgetting that a mixed sorcerer has no reasonable way of knowing whether or not the lightning resistance will be needed, or even if those times it is used it ends up being completely unnecessary and just a wasted expenditure of a point. Even assuming they only spend one point a day, and even then on those who are known for lightning capacity, there still exists a very high probability that at the end of the day the mixed sorcerer has wasted points on lightning resistance when it wasn't necessary and thus had less points to spend elsewhere.
 

Derren

Hero
Also, the part you say is that a mixed-sorcerer can get lightning resistance. The mixed sorcerer won't always get it. It's an ability that relies on a point expenditure for what amounts to a gamble that it will be useful, as opposed to saving the point spent on each time for offensive magic that is guaranteed to be useful. And you're forgetting that a mixed sorcerer has no reasonable way of knowing whether or not the lightning resistance will be needed, or even if those times it is used it ends up being completely unnecessary and just a wasted expenditure of a point. Even assuming they only spend one point a day, and even then on those who are known for lightning capacity, there still exists a very high probability that at the end of the day the mixed sorcerer has wasted points on lightning resistance when it wasn't necessary and thus had less points to spend elsewhere.

This is simply illogical. A mixed sorcerer does not spend points on lightning resistance on a gamble that it might come in useful, he spends it when he knows that it is useful and in that case he is superior to the double sorcerer. And if that situation never comes up, he is still equal. In no circumstance is the mixed sorcerer weaker than the double sorcerer.

According to your logic a sorcerer with a single known 1st level spell, magic missile, is better than a sorcerer which knows magic missile and shield because he does not "waste" spell slots on defensive spells. Same example with the Battle Master which I would like you to answer instead of dodging.

Your reasoning is flawed in several ways. You think that lightning resistance gets always used without knowing if it is useful and you think that more offensive options are always useful. Both is wrong.
 
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This is simply illogical. A mixed sorcerer does not spend points on lightning resistance on a gamble that it might come in useful, he spends it when he knows that it is useful and in that case he is superior to the double sorcerer. And if that situation never comes up, he is still equal. In no circumstance is the mixed sorcerer weaker than the double sorcerer.

Actually, at this point is when you've become illogical.

Have you looked up the number of electricity-using creatures in 5E? I have; there's a distinct lack of ones where simply activating it would give a distinct advantage (note that this is different from fire). Most electricity damage is going to come from spellcasters, for whom no sorcerer can know the spell list of without capacity to tell the future. Notice, also, there's a distinct lack of spells that would give enough future information to make that plausible.

As such, a sorcerer will almost never know lightning resistance would be useful until after it has proven useful.

Note that is different from fire damage, which comes up so much that having it on as often as possible is simply being practical.

According to your logic a sorcerer with a single known 1st level spell, magic missile, is better than a sorcerer which knows magic missile and shield because he does not "waste" spell slots on defensive spells. Same example with the Battle Master which I would like you to answer instead of dodging.

Nice strawman.

Spells require different considerations than class traits. First, what is there in options that is actually better than a defensive spell for filling that slot? Realistically, not necessarily enough. And not taking a second spell is sacrificing power, especially one that is useful because its reaction time casting means that it always applies up until it is actually cast (as long as you slots open to cast spells), after which it stops applying. That's part of why the PHB recommends it.

As for the battle master: I gave you an answer. I later edited it out because I felt I was putting in too much information and that you'd not read the whole quote and I'd have to give it to you again, but you managed to quote me anyway. In any case, if you want your answer, scroll up to where you quoted what I said about the battle master and reread it. The answer is there.

Your reasoning is flawed in several ways. You think that lightning resistance gets always used without knowing if it is useful and you think that more offensive options are always useful. Both is wrong.


And your reasoning is flawed in a number of ways. You assume sorcerers are prescient, you believe that options equal power, you do not understand how someone can have a tactical pattern outside of your worldview, you seem to assume that choosing to give up some options related to defense automatically means giving up all defensive options, you don't even bother to read all of what you quote, and you automatically assume that a person must have the tactical style of thinking they are discussing without bothering to even ask if it is their viewpoint.

Now, are we done launching ad hominems at each other?
 
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Derren

Hero
Note that is different from fire damage, which comes up so much that having it on as often as possible is simply being practical.

Then change it to red/white. Or black/green. Or switch it to blue/red versus blue/blue. The actual point doesn't change.

Nice strawman.

No, it is not a strawman. It is exactly your argument that having the option to spend resources for defensive purposes is weaker than being denied that option and having to spend all resources on offense.
And refusing to address the Battle Master example with a bogus excuse is not an answer.
 
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LOL because you don't know what a strawman is.

You can't just pre-emptively mention the flaw in your argument and magically make it off-limits in the discussion. It's still a flaw, and your argument is still ridiculous.

A strawman is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. So, yes, it is a strawman; in particular, my argument has been about a player choice removing one option without sacrificing power inherent in the class through simply taking a choice that eliminates having to spend resources on that power. You equated that with removing all options. That is how it is a strawman.

Now, call it ridiculous all you like, but it doesn't change that you're misrepresenting it. But, at no point were you actually replying to a weakness; just your perception of weakness.
 

Derren

Hero
my argument has been about a player choice removing one option without sacrificing power inherent in the class through simply taking a choice that eliminates having to spend resources on that power.

But that is not the point. I suggest you reread both the dragonborn race and the dragon sorcerer. A double sorcerer does not eliminate the need to spend a resource. The mixed sorcerer gets the same resistance than the double sorcerer without spending a resource too. But he can also get an additional resistance by spending a resource which can be done exactly when it is needed, something the double sorcerer can't do. When he needs a second resistance he is screwed.
 

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