D&D 5E The curious case of the double-dragon sorcerer

[Nergal Pendragon]

• There exist situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is no worse off than a mixed one.
• There exist situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is worse off than a mixed one.
• There exist no situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is better off than a mixed one.

It's not a huge difference in good-ness, but having a mixed draconic bloodline is definitely slightly better in some cases than, and is always at least as good as, a single draconic bloodline.

Believe it or not, but for most of this I've been talking about a player mindset, not mechanics, and how that can affect player choices. The mechanics bit was pretty much completely covered pages ago.

 

[Fralex]

Believe it or not, but for most of this I've been talking about a player mindset, not mechanics, and how that can affect player choices. The mechanics bit was pretty much completely covered pages ago.

Well I think it goes without saying that there's nothing wrong with having a disadvantage you don't mind. But the goal here is to help players who do mind the disadvantage having a single draconic bloodline creates. If that fact doesn't bother you, then it's not really useful to keep bringing up.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Thats frankly nonsense. Having an optional ability is never a disadvantage. Having this ability written on the character sheet, even if you will never use it, is not a disadvantage. At no point, in no circumstance is a mixed sorcerer weaker than a double sorcerer. And thats even before you acknowledge that we can't see into the future and that the ability you intend not to use can turn out to be quite useful in the future.

It's not a disadvantage in your mindset. It's nonsense in your mindset. Not all players operate under that mindset. Some simply decide they will never do something regardless of what the future holds and plans their character that way. Ever met a player like that?

There is no way a dragonborn sorcerer has to spend sorcerer points to get the first energy resistance. Every possible combination of colors get that. A double sorcerer does not limit anything.

Didn't you already acknowledge that a double dragon limits the capacity of a character to use one of their class abilities to its fullest?

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Well I think it goes without saying that there's nothing wrong with having a disadvantage you don't mind. But the goal here is to help players who do mind the disadvantage having a single draconic bloodline creates. If that fact doesn't bother you, then it's not really useful to keep bringing up.

The fact doesn't bother me. I posted what I had to say on page one, let Joe Liker make his decision, and walked away from the thread. As far as I was concerned, it was done.

The argument started on page 2.

 

[Derren]

It's not a disadvantage in your mindset. It's nonsense in your mindset. Not all players operate under that mindset. Some simply decide they will never do something regardless of what the future holds and plans their character that way. Ever met a player like that?

And even those players have absolutely no disadvantage by making a mixed sorcerer.

Didn't you already acknowledge that a double dragon limits the capacity of a character to use one of their class abilities to its fullest?

Except that you mean "limit" in a positive sense like in "Not having it is good as you can spend points somewhere else" which is simply a wrong interpretation of the rules as this the ability is entirely optional and temporary. When I say limit I mean a disadvantage/weakness as in "a double sorcerer can't do something a minxed sorcerer can without any form of compensation"

The fact doesn't bother me. I posted what I had to say on page one, let Joe Liker make his decision, and walked away from the thread. As far as I was concerned, it was done.

The argument started on page 2.

And even on page 1 you were wrong. You do not save points by having one less option to spend them.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

And even those players have absolutely no disadvantage by making a mixed sorcerer.

Why should they take it?

Seriously, that's the key issue: They've already made their decision, even if it puts them at a bit of a disadvantage. Why should they take a build that doesn't go along with that decision?

Except that you mean "limit" in a positive sense like in "Not having it is good as you can spend points somewhere else" which is simply a wrong interpretation of the rules as this the ability is entirely optional and temporary. When I say limit I mean a disadvantage/weakness as in "a double sorcerer can't do something a minxed sorcerer can without any form of compensation"

Except I'm not talking about mechanics. I made my mechanics post on page 1. I'm talking about player mindset. Something totally different. In player mindset, a mechanical interaction the rules normally consider a bad thing can be seen as a positive.

On mechanics, if you want to see how much of an argument I'm willing to make to support it, look for my post on page 1. I mean, sheesh, I didn't even argue that you were wrong about the mechanics in my first reply to you; I just stated other players won't necessarily view it that way.

And even on page 1 you were wrong. You do not save points by having one less option to spend them.

If you already have the ability as constantly active, you don't need to spend points on it. For a lot of players I've dealt with, that's saving points.

 

[Derren]

Why should they take it?

Why not? At the very worst, for a small subset of players, mixed and double sorcerers are equal. For the rest the mixed sorcerer is better. That means the mixed sorcerer is overall better, yet thematically the double sorcerer is more fitting.

If you already have the ability as constantly active, you don't need to spend points on it. For a lot of players I've dealt with, that's saving points.

The mixed sorcerer has the same free always active ability. You do not save anything.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Why not? At the very worst, for a small subset of players, mixed and double sorcerers are equal. For the rest the mixed sorcerer is better. That means the mixed sorcerer is overall better, yet thematically the double sorcerer is more fitting.

Why shouldn't they take the option that you admit is mechanically equal but thematically better for them?

The mixed sorcerer has the same free always active ability. You do not save anything.

Some people perceive it as a savings.

 

[Fralex]

The fact doesn't bother me. I posted what I had to say on page one, let Joe Liker make his decision, and walked away from the thread. As far as I was concerned, it was done.

The argument started on page 2.

Well, you pointed out that they would save points by having a single bloodline, which I thought made sense at first until it was brought up that having a mixed bloodline does the same thing, but also gives you the ability to spend points on a second damage resistance. Then on the second page you said that the rest of the Elemental Affinity class feature still worked fine, Derren pointed out that that didn't matter since the resistance thing was what they were talking about fixing. You reiterated that having a single bloodline would save points, Derren reitterated why it wouldn't, you rereitterated that it would, Derren rereitterated that it wouldn't, you said that it would help because a single bloodline sorcerer would be unable to make the decision to spend points on the extra resistance and thus save points, and Derren said that didn't make sense since a mixed bloodline sorcerer can simply not make that decision and save points just as easily. On the third page you explained how there are different ways a player might measure power, and that in some people's minds being able to sacrifice offensive or defensive capacity for the sake of boosting the other would be worse than not being able to do that. Therefore if a player knows ahead of time that a particular option will never be necessary, they can choose to lose it and be just as good as someone who choose to keep it. Then there was some more back-and-forth, you started talking about how not everyone views this disadvantage as a problem and that if they don't want a particular feature it's fine for them to not take it, I agreed that that was fine but not really useful to bring up here since mechanics were the issue, and then just now you brought up that someone might choose to be a single bloodline sorcerer for thematic reasons and not mind a minor mechanical drawback, which is true but also not the issue.

Both options save points, but only one option gives you an additional way to spend those points you save. Even an option with a low probability of being useful still adds a little bit of usefulness with no drawback if it is never perceived to be needed.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Well, you pointed out that they would save points by having a single bloodline, which I thought made sense at first until it was brought up that having a mixed bloodline does the same thing, but also gives you the ability to spend points on a second damage resistance. Then on the second page you said that the rest of the Elemental Affinity class feature still worked fine, Derren pointed out that that didn't matter since the resistance thing was what they were talking about fixing. You reiterated that having a single bloodline would save points, Derren reitterated why it wouldn't, you rereitterated that it would, Derren rereitterated that it wouldn't, you said that it would help because a single bloodline sorcerer would be unable to make the decision to spend points on the extra resistance and thus save points, and Derren said that didn't make sense since a mixed bloodline sorcerer can simply not make that decision and save points just as easily. On the third page you explained how there are different ways a player might measure power, and that in some people's minds being able to sacrifice offensive or defensive capacity for the sake of boosting the other would be worse than not being able to do that. Therefore if a player knows ahead of time that a particular option will never be necessary, they can choose to lose it and be just as good as someone who choose to keep it. Then there was some more back-and-forth, you started talking about how not everyone views this disadvantage as a problem and that if they don't want a particular feature it's fine for them to not take it, I agreed that that was fine but not really useful to bring up here since mechanics were the issue, and then just now you brought up that someone might choose to be a single bloodline sorcerer for thematic reasons and not mind a minor mechanical drawback, which is true but also not the issue.

I've been focused on player mentality since this post.

I never argued that one option is truly superior to the other; my initial position was treating both as roughly equal. But as you'll note my wording, I indirectly acknowledge that the double-dragon is still a bit of a disadvantage. I honestly fully expected someone to bring up that I never actually denied it being a disadvantage.