The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

Although what's interesting to me is that I recently went back and looked at the 4e Fighter exploits levels 1-30 and they really aren't crazy over the top. Sure, it's not mundane or "realistic" maybe, and there are a few (but not many) narrative/player authorial powers, but a lot of the upscaling of the martial power came from limiting magic classes, not actually giving Fighters crazy (in world) options. The options are certainly more interesting and tactical for the player, but not really that wazoo.
That was always one of the really, really frustrating things back during the day was having the same repeated argument about what was actually in the game with people who obviously had never actually read the book. And, once you managed to get that argument zipped up, the goalposts shifted ten yards down field and you had to do it again with another bunch of edition warriors insisting on misreading the books. Then, once you got that over and done with, a third group would pop back up and pull the goalposts back to the original starting point, at which point you had to have the same argument over again with this bunch.

It was exhausting. And unbelievably frustrating. And, from the looks of this thread, it hasn't really changed in the ensuing DECADE.
 

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You hit the nail on the head, Hussar. It’s been 16 years of arguments in bad faith by people who had clearly never read the material and had no interest in doing so.

And when you called them on their crap, you’d get told to chill out man it’s just a game.

Maddening.
 

That was always one of the really, really frustrating things back during the day was having the same repeated argument about what was actually in the game with people who obviously had never actually read the book. And, once you managed to get that argument zipped up, the goalposts shifted ten yards down field and you had to do it again with another bunch of edition warriors insisting on misreading the books. Then, once you got that over and done with, a third group would pop back up and pull the goalposts back to the original starting point, at which point you had to have the same argument over again with this bunch.

It was exhausting. And unbelievably frustrating. And, from the looks of this thread, it hasn't really changed in the ensuing DECADE.

Yep. The biggest gripe I have on the 4e bashing is the insistence on using the worst paradigms to evaluate 4e when better ones are available.

To be fair, I'm not even sure all the 4e authors knew how to frame 4e correctly from the start, but we can do that now.

Stuff like

Come and Get it being mind control when you can go into authorial stance and not have this be true

Shouting wounds closed, when you can just interpret HPs as "heroic fortitude points"

The whole 'farm house locks will suddenly be DC45' when you return to the same village at Epic level, when it makes a lot more sense to think that the fiction has to be relevant to apply a "level appropriate DC"

Just in general not embracing the paradigm that 4e rules are primarily meant to model the interaction of Level X PCs with Level appropriate challenges (+/- 4 levels say) to produce "in world fiction" that is coherent. The rules are not really meant to model any other interactions, and yes trying to do so can lead to silliness. Just don't do it.

Minions don't have 1 HP "in world", there is no such thing in world as a minion, HPs, powers, etc. Modeling a monster as a regular monster then a minion later does not have to have any implications on the in world interactions between that monster and farmer brown, etc.

I'm ok with someone who says "that kind of system operating under those assumptions doesn't appeal to me ".

I don't have a lot of patience for the frequent

"4e is dumb. A hill giant minion could get killed by farmer".
"Well, 4e models interactions between PCs and appropriate challenges, not between challenges and other in world things -- minion is only a model to simulate how the creature would stand up to these particular high level PCs. At this level, hill giants can be killed easily by a high level fighter which is the fiction we are gong for. Make sense? "
"Nah. 4e has to make sense under my assumptions -- stats should be simulationist and allow me to compare NPC to NPC to PC. 4e is non-sensical "
"Ok, but do you agree that if you adopt this other paradigm, everything is coherent and holds together? Wait, where are you going....?"
 

Yep. The biggest gripe I have on the 4e bashing is the insistence on using the worst paradigms to evaluate 4e when better ones are available.

To be fair, I'm not even sure all the 4e authors knew how to frame 4e correctly from the start, but we can do that now.

Stuff like

Come and Get it being mind control when you can go into authorial stance and not have this be true

Shouting wounds closed, when you can just interpret HPs as "heroic fortitude points"

The whole 'farm house locks will suddenly be DC45' when you return to the same village at Epic level, when it makes a lot more sense to think that the fiction has to be relevant to apply a "level appropriate DC"

Just in general not embracing the paradigm that 4e rules are primarily meant to model the interaction of Level X PCs with Level appropriate challenges (+/- 4 levels say) to produce "in world fiction" that is coherent. The rules are not really meant to model any other interactions, and yes trying to do so can lead to silliness. Just don't do it.

Minions don't have 1 HP "in world", there is no such thing in world as a minion, HPs, powers, etc. Modeling a monster as a regular monster then a minion later does not have to have any implications on the in world interactions between that monster and farmer brown, etc.

I'm ok with someone who says "that kind of system operating under those assumptions doesn't appeal to me ".

I don't have a lot of patience for the frequent

"4e is dumb. A hill giant minion could get killed by farmer".
"Well, 4e models interactions between PCs and appropriate challenges, not between challenges and other in world things -- minion is only a model to simulate how the creature would stand up to these particular high level PCs. At this level, hill giants can be killed easily by a high level fighter which is the fiction we are gong for. Make sense? "
"Nah. 4e has to make sense under my assumptions -- stats should be simulationist and allow me to compare NPC to NPC to PC. 4e is non-sensical "
"Ok, but do you agree that if you adopt this other paradigm, everything is coherent and holds together? Wait, where are you going....?"

I don’t disagree but if you’re giving grace on the designers and fans themselves framing it badly then the same grace ought to be applied to those who didn’t like it and trying to frame why they didn’t.
 

I don’t disagree but if you’re giving grace on the designers and fans themselves framing it badly then the same grace ought to be applied to those who didn’t like it and trying to frame why they didn’t.

Its harder to do when there was so much hyperbole involved. I found it off-putting, and I wasn't very fond of D&D 4e.
 

I don’t disagree but if you’re giving grace on the designers and fans themselves framing it badly then the same grace ought to be applied to those who didn’t like it and trying to frame why they didn’t.

Well if you cant imagine something, then this for me is at least partial on you.


We are playing role playing games, which are about trying to imagine a different world. If there is some world which you cant imagine because it is too different to what you are used to, then you can try to improve yourself.


Flavour is free in the end and 4E was open about this. The flavour text from come and get it is one possible way to describe it, but no one forces you do to do it like this. Also mechanically it is NOT a mind control. It does not deal psychic damage it has no charm keyword.


Also the flavourtext can be even interpretted in different ways: " You brandish your weapon and call out to your foes, luring them close through their overconfidence, and then deliver a spinning strike against them all."
This has 2 parts. Calling out and lure them in. Of course this can be understood as a provocation, however, it can also verry well be interpreted as "showing an opening" because you swing (brandish) your sword around like an absolute noob. And the enemies (if they fall for it (must go against will to not fall for it)) want to take advantage of your opening only to fall for this trick.


Of course you will not fall for this trick 2 times, thats why it is an 1 per encounter ability.

This fits 100% absolutly perfect 100s of action/martial art movies.



And the same is true for many of the other things people have problems about like "HP" and "healing by shouting".


Ever seen die hard or similar things? People are bloody all over, take a break a breather and then can fight again. This fits perfectly to action movies (and martial art movies). The lead designer of 4E worked on Sheng Fui before so this makes sense for me.



Also when you look a bit closer and know a bit more from martial arts, than 4E makes way more sense then OSR games for me. I explained this in detail here:
 

I don’t disagree but if you’re giving grace on the designers and fans themselves framing it badly then the same grace ought to be applied to those who didn’t like it and trying to frame why they didn’t.

It's been long enough that the frames that make it work well/coherent have been discovered and can be easily found.

And I'm fine if people say they don't like the framing needed to make 4e work. That's a preference which is all good.

But if a group of people are discussing 4e under a "good frame" and someone comes in and points out all these things wrong with 4e under a "poor frame" then it usually leads to a pointless discussion. This is /was common.

It's like,

"If I close my eyes, I can't prepare this meal well".

"If you open your eyes, it will make things a lot easier. That's what we do."

"Nah, let's just talk about how hard it is to make this meal without opening our eyes and how bad it ends up tasting when we do it this way".
 

There is a running joke / meme over in the New York Times recipes community that people will read the recipe, change almost everything about it, and then complain they didn’t like the food.

So, like:

“I substituted paprika for the cocoa powder, fish oil for the canola oil, and salt for the sugar — and this chocolate cake was TERRIBLE!”

Now, that’s funny, and illustrates the foibles of humans.

It’s not a perfect analogy to the 4e wars (because bad-faith critics were not substituting things in the recipe, they were refusing to read the recipe, try the cake, or even admit that some people like chocolate cake instead of angel food cake) — but anyway.



Also yes, 4e does not care even 2 cents for simulationism. In the triangle of GNS it is basically a line from G to N.

(There are a few vestiges of S left over in 4e, which, I think with another year of development, they would’ve entirely excised.)
 

I can say, if you use Roll20, there is an implemented character sheet, and you can code your own powers for it--simple ones aren't even that hard to do directly, actually, without any coding at all. It took me a while to get fully fluent with it, but (from experience) I can get back into the swing of it with a bit of time.


No kidding.


Certainly. This was one of the pretty major mistakes the 4e design team made early on. They did it for reasons that seemed sound at the time, but it was a bad move. Specifically, they aimed for most combats to resolve in 4-6 rounds, leaning to the top end; monsters didn't do as much damage with each hit, but lasted longer, and many early Leader things were more about sustained output than about being a force multiplier (with the Cleric being particularly so...as one of the first two Leader classes.) The point was to let the opponents have plenty of time to show off their Cool Trick(s), and plenty of time for the PCs to rally from any initial setbacks and power through to the finish. Unfortunately, in practice this meant many combats, especially those done purely "by the book"--as many people do early on in an edition when they don't know what the system is capable of!--tended to be slow and kind of grindy and, oftentimes, less "threatening" and more "logistically expensive."

Turns out, that's not what most folks wanted from D&D combat anymore (and the folks who would want it were never going to touch 4e to begin with, outside of the later 4thcore development). Of course, we have to be careful about presuming that what folks want is, in fact, a rational thing to begin with, because that isn't always true. In this case, there's an inherent tension between wanting fast combat and wanting rewarding combat, as is the case with most things. Stuff you can breeze through too quickly can't matter very much, except in the biggest and (in D&D's case) often the most frustrating ways. Most folks want both fast and rewarding, and that's...often a real challenge. OSR-type games certainly give fast and dangerous combat, but usually its combats aren't rewarding--often explicitly so, e.g. you don't get XP for fighting, only for GP value of loot collected, but sometimes only implicitly, e.g. combat is brutally lethal and it's expected that a "smart" player will figure out that rolling for initiative when you haven't won the battle in advance is a sucker's game. Getting combat that is simultaneously fast, and dangerous, and rewarding...that's a lot trickier, and the 4e designers erred pretty heavily on the wrong side.

By the time the MM3/MV math had come out, the damage was done, and even that measure only mostly fixed the problems, and even then to progressively lesser degrees as the characters got into high Paragon or Epic.

Players prefer snappier, more "dramatic" combat in many cases, though not all. That's part of why my "what would you do to update 4e" answer included my "Skirmish rules" concept. Some folks who love tactical battle mechanics might never use them. Other folks might almost exclusively use Skirmishes, with few to no standard combats. More or less, the idea is to drop down the granularity and time investment of regular combat, while still (a) having meaningful costs, (b) giving players some choices, just rapid-fire and simplified, and (c) making it so that experience at least can be "part of this balanced breakfast" so to speak.

The analogy I like to use is that Skirmishes are to proper Combats what "party skill checks" (like you have everyone roll stealth, and if a majority succeed then the party succeeds) are to Skill Challenges. Or, at least, they would be that, because I've never written up any rules attempting such a thing. It would be probably my third-highest priority for a "4.5e", after Novice Levels/Incremental Advance rules and the general cleanup of unnecessary, crufty powers.
I have a slightly different perspective on this. 4e combat is pretty dead on, but not for what Mike Mearles (based on his module and his comments on play) and a lot of the player base assumed.

4e combat absolutely sings when you approach it as very wide-open action scene type play. My games have been full of collapsing mineshafts, complex 3D spaces, challenging terrain, and STORY. A 4e fight should play like some kind of Spielberg movie scene. If it is looks anything like 5 orcs in a room, that's bad.

In defense of most players/GMs they were fed modules of bad design and DMG adventure design guidelines which didn't sufficiently emphasize this (though it is stated, but just not strongly enough).

No amount of twinking with the numbers could ever fix this, and the original numbers were perfectly OK. MM3 is even better, but you would hope designers would learn, right?
 

4e combat absolutely sings when you approach it as very wide-open action scene type play. My games have been full of collapsing mineshafts, complex 3D spaces, challenging terrain, and STORY. A 4e fight should play like some kind of Spielberg movie scene. If it is looks anything like 5 orcs in a room, that's bad.
That said and in addition, in my experience even a standard 5 orcs in a room can also work and be an engaging encounter with properly chosen orcs (a pair or trio of brutes, a solider, leader, maybe a lurker). The tactical bits can be there to make for a solid base, and then every bit you add on (terrain, timers, interactive elements, narrative, themes, etc) acts as a multiplier. :)

The main bit I'd say is to recognize that even that 5 orcs in a room encounter ought to be intended to be engaging. Room after room after room of hit point sponges is the poor adventure design (or as a replacement for adventure design) mode in 4e.
 

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