D&D General The DM Shortage

[overgeeked]

@Celebrim has been musing on this stuff far longer than I have but lately I have been thinking that characterisation of play does not look deeply enough. I think there is a deep disconnect between players that want to interact with the game word with as little between them and that world as possible.

They want immersion and the game mechanics get in the way of that. I’m one of those players.

They want as few "character levels" (think powers/skills) as possible. Player skill is a priority. They tend to OSR play if they find out about it. I think it may be one end of a spectrum of play with players willing to delegate environment interaction to the character at the other end (think more 4e)

But OSR isn’t the end of that road. FKR goes further. Free form roleplaying goes further still. And yes, the opposite end of that is 4E or other heavy crunch game-first style games.

I am not sure if exploration play is strongly coupled with that "simplified character sheet" style or independent or an aspect of the kind of challenge that, that kind of player likes. I think it might be (not sure as I was never really a fan of this type of game)

I think it is. When you have a beefy character sheet the tendency is to use what’s there instead of interact with the environment through conversation with the referee. It’s the difference between “I search the room and got a 17” and a detailed description of the specifics of that search. To me, the former is about as boring as you can possibly get while the latter is literally playing the game.

On the other hand exploration is not confined to this type of player. Players that are willing to delegate character competence (as adventures) to the character sheet and rules can play an exploration game in 5e just fine.

Not really, no. This is a big, long conversation that’s been hashed through dozens of times in the last decade.

So when someone complains that they cannot do an old school dungeon crawl in 5e they are really complaining about where the game rules (usually character sheet elements like cantrips and darkvision) get in the way of that low level high challenge type of game and then to confuse the issue a whole bunch of people pop up to say that they are running old style dungeons just fine like they always did (with or with out detailed inventory management).

Well, it’s the internet. A lot of people just like to be contrarian and argue about everything.

many issues they considered a bug in the old games the other crowd considered a feature.

That’s key. The folks who want low-level, high-challenge, player-skill focused games have to push the bulk of 5E’s mechanics out of the way to accomplish that. Whether through banning things, house ruling, or otherwise changing the game. All those mechanics get in the way.

That’s not the case with basically any edition of TSR D&D. The challenge and threat are already baked in.

Then you have the players that want their characters as big damn heroes and the people that want to see what happens next.

And so many more. Players there to kick butt. Players there to socialize. Players there to waste time. Players there to disrupt the game. Players there to win the game. Players there to have a satisfying story. Players there for the drama. Players there for zero to hero. Players there for hero to demigod. Players there to immerse in the fiction. Players there to immerse in character. Etc.

 

[Celebrim]

That’s not the case with basically any edition of TSR D&D. The challenge and threat are already baked in.

Not really. No. I just don't want to argue with you over it.

Suffice to say that depending on how you played it, 1e AD&D could be the least threatening and least challenging edition of the game out of the box. Among other things, no other edition allowed characters to eventually have significantly more hit points than any non-unique foe in the game nor did any other edition feature rules for advancing characters to any level while publishing monsters that were functionally level capped as challenges for tenth level characters. The reality of this can be seen in how much published adventures for high level characters had to push the game rules and game norms out of the way in order to provide variant experiences or variant foes. Past 12th level or so, DMs were really on their own in terms of generating challenge and threat sufficient to challenge a large well-equipped PC party, and how that was done (since the rules were pretty silent on it) varied significantly from table to table. But in particular, some tables DID NOT and the lack of challenge and lack of threat was in fact the attraction at that table.

I'm sure you are going to argue with that, and feel free, but that's my experience.

 

[Celebrim]

@Celebrim has been musing on this stuff far longer than I have but lately I have been thinking that characterization of play does not look deeply enough.

I agree and I think I'm going to fork out to different thread to discuss it. I don't however necessarily agree with you as to what is going on in terms of player enjoyment, but before I can dig down to the very granular level you are thinking at I'm going to have to think through a couple levels more abstract and define some language for discussing it.

One area I do agree with @overgeeked on is his description: "And so many more. Players there to kick butt. Players there to socialize. Players there to waste time. Players there to disrupt the game. Players there to win the game. Players there to have a satisfying story. Players there for the drama. Players there for zero to hero. Players there for hero to demigod. Players there to immerse in the fiction. Players there to immerse in character. Etc."

 

[Aldarc]

@Celebrim, I think that you somehow misquoted @overgeeked and me. No big deal. It happens.

 

[Celebrim]

@Celebrim, I think that you somehow misquoted @overgeeked and me. No big deal. It happens.

That's like the second time that has happened. I haven't figured out how I'm doing it though.

 

[Retreater]

The first time I felt really exhausted and overworked as a DM was in 3.x/PF1. It was like a job. I stopped writing my own adventures and using pre-published content, which I hadn't done in my previous system (2E). 4E was a break from that, mostly because I ran Encounters at the game store - which was super easy to prep and simplistic (I think each season ended at 3rd level).
I'm back to feeling exhausted and overworked as a DM in 5E.
I perceive it to be a little more challenging to prep than 2E (just because the powers of the characters AND that the encounter system doesn't work at all.) 4E might've been easier because of the content I ran in that era. But it's miles easier than 3.x/PF1. It's harder to prep than PF2 because the encounter system works in PF2.
The real challenge for me in 5E is that I'm not running a single game. I'm running TWO weekly games of 5E (because no one else in those groups wants to DM). I'm also running a weekly PF2 game, which requires less headspace because it's mostly already done for me.
Even with premade adventures (or maybe ESPECIALLY with premade adventures), 5E takes a good amount of work to make it function for my groups.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I agree and I think I'm going to fork out to different thread to discuss it. I don't however necessarily agree with you as to what is going on in terms of player enjoyment, but before I can dig down to the very granular level you are thinking at I'm going to have to think through a couple levels more abstract and define some language for discussing it.

One area I do agree with @overgeeked on is his description: "And so many more. Players there to kick butt. Players there to socialize. Players there to waste time. Players there to disrupt the game. Players there to win the game. Players there to have a satisfying story. Players there for the drama. Players there for zero to hero. Players there for hero to demigod. Players there to immerse in the fiction. Players there to immerse in character. Etc."

If we agreed we would learn nothing.

 

[bloodtide]

How about give players the choice between OSR versus no game at all? That seems to have worked for @bloodtide at least!

So right after 5E Spelljammer came out, everyone wanted to play it. But the 'local game culture' had this idea that the "younger clueless" DMs could not run a "good" Spelljammer game...or so it was said. And then this group came to me....and asked me to run a game for them. I explained that I'm not the DM for your group....but they wanted the classic style. My house rules are what most gamers like them would call extreme or even impossible....but they agreed.

That was months ago, and they are still 'Jamming. They found my game to be not as bad as they thought, but they still have lots of complaints. But I don't allow complaints during the game, and don't known them outside of the game....so.

Why not? It works for most 5E players and referees. So many people want to play other games and yet there aren't enough players because 5E sucks all the oxygen out of the room.

First you can run a 5E game in the style of another game, I do this all the time.

The other trick is to run a very "pop culture" short game. Like a (ancient) Marvel Super Heroes game doing the "battle of New York" from the Avengers movie. Or Scum and Villainy doing an "Moon Eleven" type heist.

 

[payn]

The first time I felt really exhausted and overworked as a DM was in 3.x/PF1. It was like a job. I stopped writing my own adventures and using pre-published content, which I hadn't done in my previous system (2E). 4E was a break from that, mostly because I ran Encounters at the game store - which was super easy to prep and simplistic (I think each season ended at 3rd level).
I'm back to feeling exhausted and overworked as a DM in 5E.
I perceive it to be a little more challenging to prep than 2E (just because the powers of the characters AND that the encounter system doesn't work at all.) 4E might've been easier because of the content I ran in that era. But it's miles easier than 3.x/PF1. It's harder to prep than PF2 because the encounter system works in PF2.
The real challenge for me in 5E is that I'm not running a single game. I'm running TWO weekly games of 5E (because no one else in those groups wants to DM). I'm also running a weekly PF2 game, which requires less headspace because it's mostly already done for me.
Even with premade adventures (or maybe ESPECIALLY with premade adventures), 5E takes a good amount of work to make it function for my groups.

What adventure in PF2 are you running?

 

[Retreater]

What adventure in PF2 are you running?

The Quest for the Frozen Flame AP. So far it has the challenge level right and has more variety than Abomination Vaults. But even when I was creating my own encounters, the design math seemed to work - probably better for me than the AP designers of Paizo because I actually followed the game's guidelines.