Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
And circumstance. Being chased into a dead end and desperately needing passwall because you didn't prepare it for the day is another issue.
D&D General The DM Shortage
Clint_L
Hero
So your stance is that the DMG is more useful than the PHB and MM? My experience is vastly different. I cannot remember the last time I referred to my DMG aside from magic items. I refer to the MM and the PHB constantly.
And I don't think that's because I lack the comprehension to realize how truly good and useful it is, for me or for beginners - working with beginning players is mostly what I do as a DM, and I am a trained teacher with decades of experience. As an instructional text, the DMG is disorganized, lacks clear progression, and mostly consists of vague advice, extraneous details, and a whole lot of conceptually interesting but poorly developed options. Plus magic items, which are legitimately useful.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
The Strawman is strong with you. I said nothing about it being MORE useful than any book. I simply said it was very useful to the new DM.
Same here. We're very experienced DMs, though. I didn't even by the 3.5 DMG and I ran 3.5 up until 2019. New DMs, however, don't have the world building knowledge we have and the DMG has a lot of it for them. They DMG is good for them.
The DMG is disorganized, I will grant you that. It's still useful to the new DM. It's not that large and it's it's still pretty easy to find the world building stuff a new DM might need.
Clint_L
Hero
Looking at it from a teacher's perspective, the problem with DMG is that it is not clear who it is written for or what it is trying to achieve.
It starts with sort of general advice about running a campaign and world-building, but this is all sort of generalized and aspirational, and kind of mashes up two distinct tasks. This actually reads like something intended for an experienced player who is considering trying to DM but already understands the game very well and has lots of ideas already. The tone is almost philosophical ("what is an RP?").
If I was aiming for a new player, I would really break this section down into concrete, achievable chunks. And the number one teaching tool that the DMG lacks is modelling: the best way to teach something to someone isn't to explain it at length, it's to introduce basic concepts, give them models to study, and get them started on a simple version of the task so that they can learn by doing.
And, in early chapters, I definitely would NOT go anywhere near discussing building an entire campaign world, which is where the DMG heads very quickly, sometimes in broad strokes and sometimes in weirdly granular detail. No! Start by just helping them create a basic adventure setting for one game, giving them a model to work with. You want to get the student doing something independently as quickly as possible. Give them an achievable!
Okay, that's Chapter 1 - you've made an adventure (or can just use this model we've given you, if that suits you better for now).
Oh, key point: after every session, they should ask for constructive feedback from their players! Formative assessment is really useful to help improve!
Chapter 2 - how to run a short Session 0 and get playing. Again, just the basics, with some concrete tasks to work on, like having your players fill out brief character cards, make a mutual list of expectations (this is something almost every decent teacher does at the first class of the year), that kind of thing.
Chapter 3: Expanding your world: now you add some more instruction, a little more detailed, on where you can take the adventure next. Again, provide a model. Note that this is looking kind of like how the first D&D worlds were created back in the 70s - there's a reason for that. It's kind of an intuitive, step-by-step process.
Subsequent chapters: maybe one has to do with world religions. Use that as the basis for an adventure. Include a model. Maybe another one has to do with traveling to another plane. Again, get the student to actually build an adventure, and give a model.
In these subsequent chapters, I would add more of those DMing tips, but I would do it in side bubbles, where relevant to the adventure that is being built.
This is all off the cuff, but that is the sort of structure that you use when you are trying to bring new students up to speed in pretty much any subject: you teach a bit, have them do a thing, teach a bit more detail, have them apply it again, now get them to synthesize into something even more complex, and so on, while providing consistent feedback.
That's what I would do with the first half of the DM's Guide, and I would take it far enough that even experienced DMs would find some expert ideas to consider as the chapters progress. But the second half of the text would really be aimed at experienced DMs - like if you've mastered that first half, here is a ton of stuff that you can use to really personalize your campaign. Some of these would be optional rules, but developed enough that they can be plugged right in and tried out. Others would be story hooks and role-playing ideas. And towards the end I would get really out there, with avant garde ideas for different ways to play the game and build adventures.
It starts with sort of general advice about running a campaign and world-building, but this is all sort of generalized and aspirational, and kind of mashes up two distinct tasks. This actually reads like something intended for an experienced player who is considering trying to DM but already understands the game very well and has lots of ideas already. The tone is almost philosophical ("what is an RP?").
If I was aiming for a new player, I would really break this section down into concrete, achievable chunks. And the number one teaching tool that the DMG lacks is modelling: the best way to teach something to someone isn't to explain it at length, it's to introduce basic concepts, give them models to study, and get them started on a simple version of the task so that they can learn by doing.
And, in early chapters, I definitely would NOT go anywhere near discussing building an entire campaign world, which is where the DMG heads very quickly, sometimes in broad strokes and sometimes in weirdly granular detail. No! Start by just helping them create a basic adventure setting for one game, giving them a model to work with. You want to get the student doing something independently as quickly as possible. Give them an achievable!
Okay, that's Chapter 1 - you've made an adventure (or can just use this model we've given you, if that suits you better for now).
Oh, key point: after every session, they should ask for constructive feedback from their players! Formative assessment is really useful to help improve!
Chapter 2 - how to run a short Session 0 and get playing. Again, just the basics, with some concrete tasks to work on, like having your players fill out brief character cards, make a mutual list of expectations (this is something almost every decent teacher does at the first class of the year), that kind of thing.
Chapter 3: Expanding your world: now you add some more instruction, a little more detailed, on where you can take the adventure next. Again, provide a model. Note that this is looking kind of like how the first D&D worlds were created back in the 70s - there's a reason for that. It's kind of an intuitive, step-by-step process.
Subsequent chapters: maybe one has to do with world religions. Use that as the basis for an adventure. Include a model. Maybe another one has to do with traveling to another plane. Again, get the student to actually build an adventure, and give a model.
In these subsequent chapters, I would add more of those DMing tips, but I would do it in side bubbles, where relevant to the adventure that is being built.
This is all off the cuff, but that is the sort of structure that you use when you are trying to bring new students up to speed in pretty much any subject: you teach a bit, have them do a thing, teach a bit more detail, have them apply it again, now get them to synthesize into something even more complex, and so on, while providing consistent feedback.
That's what I would do with the first half of the DM's Guide, and I would take it far enough that even experienced DMs would find some expert ideas to consider as the chapters progress. But the second half of the text would really be aimed at experienced DMs - like if you've mastered that first half, here is a ton of stuff that you can use to really personalize your campaign. Some of these would be optional rules, but developed enough that they can be plugged right in and tried out. Others would be story hooks and role-playing ideas. And towards the end I would get really out there, with avant garde ideas for different ways to play the game and build adventures.
That too. It's very much "if the stars align just so" kind of class.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I agree with this order of things. It's what I was thinking about when I said the DMG is not organized well. You shouldn't have to go through the world building portion before you get the vast majority of the DM advice. The other part of the disorganization is the index. You shouldn't be referred to another part of the index when you look something up. Just give a page number.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
A perfectly valid opinion. Which is why you need to present a range of different opinions to trainee DMs. But, since many players treat anything in a core rulebook as Word of God, it's very difficult to make it clear that an opinion is just an opinion.
That is specific to whichever example you are citing. So, once you have analysed The Last Airbender, which example are you going to go onto next? Are you going to go through the whole of Appendix N (plus TV, movies and comics) and analyse each entry individually, or are you going to make an (unavoidably controversial) small selection?
Indeed, everything is already out there. It just needs collating and refencing to make it easy for the trainee DM to find what they need.
An infinitely large, video enabled DMG?
I think that's called the internet.
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pogre
Legend
I opened a game this Christmas, I don't remember which one*, and it said "reading the directions is the worst way to learn how to play a game follow this link to a video explaining the game."
I prefer the written word, but I know that I am in the minority. I coach high school American football and track & field. I have a large collection of coaching books, but most are over ten years old. Why? Because everything is on video these days, and reps tell me the books just do not sell very well.
These days all of our scouting reports for games are online in video style format. There are some diagrams, but they are slides in videos. The kids watch it on their phones all the time. I would say our team is much better prepared since we went to the electronic format from paper scouting reports. Our kids watch it all week instead of just glancing through it on Monday.
Before you jump on the "but you guys are a bunch of dumb jocks explanation" - take a look at Khan Academy. That site has gone through the roof over the last few years.
A basic step-by-step how to DM your first adventure on video would be great for new players. I know a lot of people are going to post a bunch of youtube video links in response. But, I am talking about a well-organized, purposeful effort from the game designers.
I would hate it, but it would not be for people like me.
*It was a good Christmas for games!
I prefer the written word, but I know that I am in the minority. I coach high school American football and track & field. I have a large collection of coaching books, but most are over ten years old. Why? Because everything is on video these days, and reps tell me the books just do not sell very well.
These days all of our scouting reports for games are online in video style format. There are some diagrams, but they are slides in videos. The kids watch it on their phones all the time. I would say our team is much better prepared since we went to the electronic format from paper scouting reports. Our kids watch it all week instead of just glancing through it on Monday.
Before you jump on the "but you guys are a bunch of dumb jocks explanation" - take a look at Khan Academy. That site has gone through the roof over the last few years.
A basic step-by-step how to DM your first adventure on video would be great for new players. I know a lot of people are going to post a bunch of youtube video links in response. But, I am talking about a well-organized, purposeful effort from the game designers.
I would hate it, but it would not be for people like me.
*It was a good Christmas for games!
An aspect of this, which I think D&D culture and (non-4e) D&D books have yet to fully grapple with, is talking about GM techniques in a way that "pops the bubble" of mystery and mystique.
I mean, the mystery is important in the moment of play. But learning to DM means getting behind it into the nitty-gritty of how to make the many concrete decisions that a GM is required to make.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Absolutely. It shows just how darn old this forum skews that there isn't an automatic assumption that you will use multimedia to teach anyone anything.
Where is it the young people hang out these days? TikTok? Or is that old hat now?
But we aren't going to come up with anything sensible here unless we can get some under-20s in the discussion.
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