D&D General The DM Shortage

[James Gasik]

The DMG has optional rules for this exact thing. Epic Heroism, p267. Five minute short rest, one hour long rest. They suggest doing much harder encounters to compensate.

Who reads the DMG?

I kid, I kid. The problem with that is it doesn't actually shift the game to encounter-based from daily resource-based. Epic Heroism is still going to leave casters with spell slots to burn, and unlike, say, 4e, there are a lot more spells that are useful in solving non-combat situations. A 4e Wizard might have an extra Fountain of Flame at the end of a game day. No big deal.

A 5e Wizard would be like "hmm, what else can I do with this extra spell slot laying around?". And in a world with Fabricate, Simulacrum, Guards and Wards and who knows what else, you can turn that spell slot into a resource you'll have for the next game day.

 

[Mort]

You are still assuming that anyone at the table is capable of acting reasonably in the situation you describe in post#962. Given the design constraints of 5e nobody can. Even just Looking at the skills part is rife with design problems. The 5e system is designed for a party of one or two players of almost any class no matter what type of game is being run & it creates several problems even before considering the GM's expectations to run a grindfest & some of them even create new problems.

We're talking about two different things. You are talking about systemic problems in 5e. I'm not. I'm talking about DMs being unwilling to have skills even approach magic in efficacy - such as using a skill to get past a guard vs. using a spell.

Issues with encounter design, daily grind, resource management etc. are a completely different issue than the one I was/am addressing.

In other situations the skill system is designed in ways that rob specialists of their skill niche. Having their own skill niche devalued & given to anyone else makes them less likely to see any reason why they should lean in to support the rogue's effort to persuade the gm over casting the niche spell they can cast to do it while they shrug off the rogue's plight in that scenario. The GM likewise has their own set of unreasonable design choices impacting them though & can really only choose the caster's route for successful circumvention. The rogue too is not acting reasonably in complaining about the caster being allowed by spell slot but not rogue by no resource consumption skill check because they are ignoring what the GM is expected to enforce & actively trying to upend it in a way that negatively impacts everyone else at the table.

See, I don't think so. I don't think any given DM is having some kind of internal struggle with resource management and having to shortchange the rogue in favor of the mage because 5e demands resource depletion. I think most DMs simply give the caster the "it's magic..." pass.

 

[James Gasik]

You are still assuming that anyone at the table is capable of acting reasonably in the situation you describe in post#962. Given the design constraints of 5e nobody can. Even just Looking at the skills part is rife with design problems. The 5e system is designed for a party of one or two players of almost any class no matter what type of game is being run & it creates several problems even before considering the GM's expectations to run a grindfest & some of them even create new problems.

In other situations the skill system is designed in ways that rob specialists of their skill niche. Having their own skill niche devalued & given to anyone else makes them less likely to see any reason why they should lean in to support the rogue's effort to persuade the gm over casting the niche spell they can cast to do it while they shrug off the rogue's plight in that scenario. The GM likewise has their own set of unreasonable design choices impacting them though & can really only choose the caster's route for successful circumvention. The rogue too is not acting reasonably in complaining about the caster being allowed by spell slot but not rogue by no resource consumption skill check because they are ignoring what the GM is expected to enforce & actively trying to upend it in a way that negatively impacts everyone else at the table.

And of course, the Rogue creates it's own impact on the skill system, which is why Expertise is suddenly being handed to more classes. If one class is simply better at using skills, and hitting high DC's than others, there's a perception that skills are less useful to everyone else (not saying that's true, just that it's a perception).

And I've seen newer DM's flounder with players wanting to attempt things that they're not sure they want to deal with using ability checks, so they just set the DC's higher, thinking that will solve most problems.

And along comes Mr. Rogue saying "hm? DC 25? No no, don't bother casting Guidance, Mr. Cleric, I got this."

 

[Mort]

No system is going to cure bad GMing, though.

True, but a given system can much better define what skills can actually do and perhaps suggest the DM be liberal in allowing the PCs to use them.

I mean, same scenario in 5e wouldn’t happen if the DM is running by the Ability Check rules/guidance to only call for a roll if there is uncertainty in the outcome. The DM in this case seems to have decided the guard is unpersuadable for… reasons. No roll. (To be clear, those reasons better be really good and telegraphed and not simply DM fiat, otherwise we’re back to bad DMing).

But the same DM will allow suggestion or charm person because "it's magic..." and that's my point. I've observed a CLEAR bias to simply give magic a pass because reasons. It might be helpful if the DMG addressed that.

 

[James Gasik]

We're talking about two different things. You are talking about systemic problems in 5e. I'm not. I'm talking about DMs being unwilling to have skills even approach magic in efficacy - such as using a skill to get past a guard vs. using a spell.

Issues with encounter design, daily grind, resource management etc. are a completely different issue than the one I was/am addressing.



See, I don't think so. I don't think any given DM is having some kind of internal struggle with resource management and having to shortchange the rogue in favor of the mage because 5e demands resource depletion. I think most DMs simply give the caster the "it's magic..." pass.

You do see, however, how spells are given more weight in the system than ability checks/skills though, right? I don't think people are just going "it's magic, so naturally it's better" out of the blue- the system itself reinforces this viewpoint by presenting many challenges that skills can't do anything about in the first place, as well as offering spells that just solve problems in a short amount of time.

Like, say you're being chased by a large force and you find an old keep and you decide to fortify it to make a stand. How long would it take someone using skills to do this? How many skill checks would be called for?

Oh wait, never mind, the Wizard took 10 minutes and cast Guards and Wards.

 

[Mort]

You do see, however, how spells are given more weight in the system than ability checks/skills though, right? I don't think people are just going "it's magic, so naturally it's better" out of the blue- the system itself reinforces this viewpoint by presenting many challenges that skills can't do anything about in the first place, as well as offering spells that just solve problems in a short amount of time.

Like, say you're being chased by a large force and you find an old keep and you decide to fortify it to make a stand. How long would it take someone using skills to do this? How many skill checks would be called for?

Oh wait, never mind, the Wizard took 10 minutes and cast Guards and Wards.

Certainly, I don't think we are actually disagreeing.

The system itself reinforces the "it's magic..." problem. By providing easy spell solutions (such as your guards and wards example) while at the same time providing precious little guidance as to how skills would accomplish something.

I mean beyond the scant examples in the PHB the whole approach to skills is "figure it out..."as horrible an approach as you can get!

 

[overgeeked]

Who reads the DMG?

I kid, I kid.

Apparently you don't, given your response.

The problem with that is it doesn't actually shift the game to encounter-based from daily resource-based.

It literally does just that. And just in case you didn't play 4E or have forgotten, it had both encounter and daily resources.

Epic Heroism is still going to leave casters with spell slots to burn...

Only if you refuse to increase the difficulty of the combat.

A 5e Wizard would be like "hmm, what else can I do with this extra spell slot laying around?". And in a world with Fabricate, Simulacrum, Guards and Wards and who knows what else, you can turn that spell slot into a resource you'll have for the next game day.

Most campaigns don't last long enough for higher level spells to matter. You could make the same pointless argument about wish.

 

[Micah Sweet]

True, but a given system can much better define what skills can actually do and perhaps suggest the DM be liberal in allowing the PCs to use them.


But the same DM will allow suggestion or charm person because "it's magic..." and that's my point. I've observed a CLEAR bias to simply give magic a pass because reasons. It might be helpful if the DMG addressed that.

But the problem is, people like magic. The DMG is not going to encourage DMs to limit players from using their cool powers.

 

[Mort]

But the problem is, people like magic. The DMG is not going to encourage DMs to limit players from using their cool powers.

The trick is to ALSO encourage (rather than discourage or simply not address) DMs being open to solutions other than "it's magic..."

It's not about limitation it's about not reducing everything to finding the right magic button.

 

[tetrasodium]

And of course, the Rogue creates it's own impact on the skill system, which is why Expertise is suddenly being handed to more classes. If one class is simply better at using skills, and hitting high DC's than others, there's a perception that skills are less useful to everyone else (not saying that's true, just that it's a perception).

And I've seen newer DM's flounder with players wanting to attempt things that they're not sure they want to deal with using ability checks, so they just set the DC's higher, thinking that will solve most problems.

And along comes Mr. Rogue saying "hm? DC 25? No no, don't bother casting Guidance, Mr. Cleric, I got this."

Rogue was mentioned in post #962 as the skill character so I kept it. Spreading around expertise doesn't help much in the way it's being done because they are "two of your skill proficiencies" rather than being limited to class relevant skills allowing race & multiclass gained skills to be tagged with expertise. If 6e keeps the choose any skill you want if anything offers it a second time. With any luck we haven't seen the last of the skill changes for 6e yet.