The fighter and the paladin pretty well ganged up on the knight & stole his stuff

[RigaMortus2]

Stealing from Tolkien, Vance, Howard, or Moorcock = original and wholesome
Stealing from WoW = derivative and evil

Hah hah hah... He said, Moorcock...

 

[DarkKestral]

And let me tell you, I'm looking forward to that immensely. I always hated that paladins were only goodie-two-shoes; in my mind, paladins are exemplars of a God. They're their deities' right-hand soldiers, who are called to service and further their deities' goals with every action.

Whether those goals are "Free the world from tyrranical oppressors" or "Enslave humanity to prove that elves are the master race" or "further the cause of magic and mysticism throughout the world" doesn't matter - they're all paladins.

IMO, of course.

I'm looking forward to the day I can have CE paladin whose credo is "I do what I want, when I want to. Anyone who complains about that will suffer my wrath," and who takes down governments.

 

[fuindordm]

I'm looking forward to the day I can have CE paladin whose credo is "I do what I want, when I want to. Anyone who complains about that will suffer my wrath," and who takes down governments.

That's actually one of the reasons I don't like the idea that all alignments should have paladins.

In my mind, the paladin's power comes from their devotion to a spiritual ideal, not to a god. In that sense, they are not unlike the monk...

To avoid derailing this thread, I started a new one. If you're interested in discussing what paladins should be in a campaign, you can do so here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206408

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And let me tell you, I'm looking forward to that immensely. I always hated that paladins were only goodie-two-shoes; in my mind, paladins are exemplars of a God. They're their deities' right-hand soldiers, who are called to service and further their deities' goals with every action.

Well, what does the cleric represent then? The cleric is, in D&D, a martial servant of a god. Not a contemplative village priest, but a warrior-champion.

I've always liked paladins being something asymmetric, a unique champion that only LG got. I didn't mind the other alignment-based classes, particularly if they are very different from the paladin. Chaotic barbarians, neutral druids, evil assassins, and so on. Not a big fan of the blackguard, unless you make him LE and really emphasize the "dark reflection" theme.

The paladin also ties in to an archetype that is prevalent in fiction and myth. The heroic knight in shining armor, willing to march in to Hell for a heavenly cause.

 

[Rechan]

Well, what does the cleric represent then? The cleric is, in D&D, a martial servant of a god. Not a contemplative village priest, but a warrior-champion.

IMHO clerics are basically a Saint/Prophet. Several Saints were also warriors - Saint George vs. the Dragon, for instance.

But in general I think the Cleric gets to wear full armor and decent BAB and full casting and such is to coax players to play the Cleric, not because the Cleric is the warrior champion.

 

[KingCrab]

Noooo!

Even more evidence that they're not gonna change their mind about paladins and drop them from the 4e PHB to make room for the Druid and Bard. I can still dream.

 

[Zurai]

Clerics are priests, not warriors. IMO anyway. They shouldn't have access to heavy armor or martial weapons, unless they're the priests of a war-god.

Again, these are my opinions

 

[Klaus]

Clerics are priests, not warriors. IMO anyway. They shouldn't have access to heavy armor or martial weapons, unless they're the priests of a war-god.

Again, these are my opinions

And I agree, which is why I hope the 4e cleric borrows a page from the UA cloistered cleric. If he wanna be a crusader, let him multi into fighter.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And I agree, which is why I hope the 4e cleric borrows a page from the UA cloistered cleric. If he wanna be a crusader, let him multi into fighter.

Well, clerics have always been very capable warriors in D&D. In Basic/Expert, they were very close to fighters as far as melee combat was concerned. Their inspiration is generally cited as the religious orders of knighthood such as the Templars, Hospitalers, and Teutonic Knights. The description of the class in all editions has supported the "holy warrior" archetype.

You might introduce a new class called "holy man", but when playing a "cleric" in a game called "Dungeons and Dragons" I expect to be able to strap on some heavy armor and smite evil with a mace.

 

[Rechan]

Clerics will not be cloistered clerics by default in 4e, I can promise you. I mean, in our example of the party fighting the Dragon, the Cleric hits the Dragon with a weapon and heals the wizard with the subsequent damage.

No body wants to play the medic, and WotC making the Cleric a cloistered cleric by default will result in people not playing it. They over-powered it in 3e to con people into playing it, so at the very least they're not going to make it weak.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a talent tree that allows for a Cloistered version - I enjoyed my archivist. But I highly doubt it will be the default.